John goes a little deeper into his issues with authenticity during sales conversations. Because he thrives on hitting goals and solving problems, it can be difficult for him, (and people like him), to get through the rapport side of these chats. But bonding and rapport are important in sales, so it's important for people who struggle with this to find a way to make storytelling work for them.
This week, we're continuing our theme of selling and storytelling.
John goes a little deeper into his issues with authenticity during sales conversations.
Because he thrives on hitting goals and solving problems, it can be difficult for him, (and people like him), to get through the rapport side of these chats.
But since he knows how important rapport and trust-building are in sales, he just has to shift his mindset about them.
That's the trick about using any of the techniques and best practices to use in sales conversations. You have to find a way to make it natural and authentic for you. And then the bonding and rapport can happen organically.
If you're not sure what personality traits you may have to battle to have authentic sales conversations, a DISC assessment will point you in the right direction. Email us at DISC@salesthrowdown.com for more info.
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Let's get ready to Throwdown!
What's up everybody? What is up everybody? Good Lord, we are back. And we're hopping right back into where we ended last time Clint was telling a story, very important phone call, and he was trying to be very deliberate is the word I'm going to use in this framing?
Yeah, that's true. I, you know, because of some embarrassment that we had, and, and it kind of threw me out of my normal process I wanted to get, I felt like I needed to be at this certain professional level. That is completely head trash in my own mind, that I had to get to a certain, you know, extra professional level to get these these answers and take care of these people and figure out what the hell went wrong. And, you know, I went down the path of setting up that very textbook, that framework, right that, hey, do you have 30 minutes to talk about this issue that we seem to have between the two of us. And I'd like to, you know, not only for just, you know, my own benefit, but maybe also for yours and, you know, it just got so far outside of my normal speech patterns, that it was almost embarrassing, right. And I could tell that I everything that I was saying was just falling on deaf ears. And, and I actually just kind of had to interrupt myself and just say, hey, look, you know, guys, bottom line is we screwed up. We know we did. We'd like to get to the bottom of this situation. And look, people screw up all the time, and we own it, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get it done. Right. And we'd like to we'd like to hear your side ever just so we don't you know, we'd like to see where you stand. And for me to back up right and and do that got broke that pattern of that textbook thing. So and what we were talking about the reason I brought that story up, is because you can do that in storytelling and framework. You can get so textbook that it's so One natural that it throws everybody off it throws the guy sitting across the room from you out of his world and he's like, What the? I yeah, okay. Yeah, sure I got 20 minutes. I don't know, I've never been asked that question before you can do things that throw people off so bad that, just ask the freaking question you know, like if you really need to know and make sure you ask questions that you truly need to know don't ask questions to be stupid. But but the textbooks out there guys will will tell you to do that. Right. And you know,
But like you get why though, right? I mean, that's the sorry I cut you off. I apologize. You're
So there is a reason why that you they do do that. But most people out there that I'm hearing and seeing and even even some salespeople that I've worked with in the past, look at it as law and they follow it to a tee and it is absolutely anything but that. It is an idea, it is another way to do something, it is a framework for your own self. But, but guys, you can't you can't follow this stuff to a tee. And I think that's where I kind of, I took all the knowledge that I that I could take from sales training, and I knew that, hey, I have all the parts and pieces here, right? It's like having 5000 laws, and there's no consequences for any of them. So we want to add 5001 and 5002 and 5003. Guys, you only needed three of the damn things. You just got to follow them and you got to do those things, right? And you won't need all these laws and these these written rules. So just it's just a caution. It happens to me all the time, I fall in my own trap. And so I just caution you, that's all. Huh,
Well, I think that it, you know, in my minds, I compare it to having an outline versus having a script right. And if if I know all You know, I have a road map, but then I also have that building that I see. And then you know, so how am I going to get there Am I going to put my nose in the map, what's kind of hard to drive and do that at the same time that gets a little, you know, hard to do. Whereas if I look down and I see the pathway to get to the point that I need to be like in my phone. Nan and I go round and round about this, right? I want to see the wire, the blue line goes, right, and then I know the lay of the land at that point, right? It's given me the best route. Now I'm looking for the on ramp that I'm used to, but there may be a truck semi truck turned over like there was the other day. And then I got to decide, well, should I exit? Yeah. So again, it's this constant. I go as far as I can see, and then I see how to go further. So if it's a conversation with John, it's listening to John's feedback it's doing my antics are whatever comes natural to me, but along the way, I know what the goal where the goalposts is Right. So why do I have to be so worried about every hash tag line that comes past me as I'm running towards the endzone? That's not what I'm focusing on. I'm focusing on not getting tackled between here and the endzone. So what are you looking at? Right? Are you looking at your feet? Are you looking at the horizon? Right, my feet are going to do what they naturally need to do to get to the goal. Why not approach it from that aspect? I mean, that's just me because I'm not suggesting that works for everybody.
Hey Clint,, watch your, watch your mic and keeps like I think hidden your jacket and there's a lot of, yeah, that noise right there. There you go.
It's dragging on his pooka beads that are hanging around his neck, got a little beatnik look going on there. That's what I'm talking about.
So So here's the thing guys, like, like, I thought I wasn't doing those things. Like I thought that I was being in the moment and not using these or not like kind of like hiding by these techniques and just checking the boxes, like I really thought that I was doing it the right way. And then you hit this other level of, you know, cognition or reps or awareness or whatever. And then it's like, oh, I was still using these things as techniques, as opposed to really just trying to be like, on the level with the prospect of like, Hey, what are you really trying to do here? Right. And so, you know, I think you just get to that point, right? of, Oh, I can do these things without thinking about them. But that only happens when you're put into those situations, and I wasn't allowing myself to put myself into those spots, if that makes sense.
But do you, are you allowing yourself now to be putting those spots? No, yeah.
No, yeah. And you know, it's significantly changing, right? Because, you know, it's weird. Because we know this to be true. Like, like, I'm more confident of just being like, Okay, cool. Like, you don't need this, like based on like a really quick conversation, and then moving through, and, you know, the, it's the it's the outside examples, which are more interesting. Right, like in my, in my interactions with like friends and stuff like that.
Let me stop you though you said something interesting. Now you said that you you're telling them that they don't need what you have. But are you at how can you be absolutely sure, without asking the question of, hey, John sounds like this may not be a fit, or I'm getting the sense that maybe this isn't what you need. But that doesn't mean they don't still have a problem, right? Sure. It's you need to do Yeah, right. So don't give up on the fact that, you know, that path or where you were going?
Well, the way that the way that we've been approaching it is like is like hey, look, right. I know some stuff about marketing, but I'm mostly a sales guy. So if you'd like to kind of talk about what's going on in your business, I can either let you know it's a marketing problem, or it's or it's a sales problem. So who wants to hop on and have one of those calls, right, and I get nice interaction off of those. And so when we get in there, it's very purposely looking for either like a sales issue or Like a marketing issue, depending upon how they choose to want to fix that problem, and I can't help with the marketing, so there's no pressure on them to, like, Dodge me or be like, not honest with me, because it's not like I'm trying to catch all. And so that way I can be like, Oh, I can fix that problem. It's, it's like, let's figure out for you how you really want to build your business because you can be sales heavy, right? Which is good for some people. And then some people want to be marketing heavy, and there's pluses and minuses of that. And so when I'm when I'm on my calls, were purposefully looking for like, where the problem is. And I'm doing all like the probing and questioning and discovery that you know, you have to do to have really good conversations and they're leading me to that path. Well, now I feel really confident when I'm on the phone. Okay, well, how do you know well, because of this and this and this and this and this, okay. Do you want to keep having those calls? Yeah. Okay, awesome. So works. What's the real problem? Well, I need more people call me because that's a marketing problem. You know, okay. Al's rolling his eyes. And Clint looks like he wants to argue with me.
No, well, you just told Exactly. I think you're jumping to conclusions here. I'm digesting what you just said. And, you know, it makes sense. I know, you know, well, right. And I, and I and Nan brought up the different dynamic referencing you and your daughter in the we've seen you in action at dinner and the way you, you know, work through situations, which is, I guess, a good indicator of how valid tunes you can be with somebody who is, you know, connected to you, but has their own agenda or you have to incorporate that agenda to get to get to the goal line like we spoke about. So I guess I question What prevents you from being your best self in the sales encounters. And if you think you are your best self, you know, fair Enough, right?
Yeah, I think I think for a very long time, I was trying to be some other version of this. But like, I really feel like, because I think that you said it right there, right? When when I have to figure out a problem is, is arguably when I'm at my best thought processes, right? So as opposed to coming in and seeing if there's something that I can sell to you, right? Or if there's a reason for us to work together, which kind of feels like we're pitted against each other, like, depending upon your point of view. It's like, hey, let me find out with you if you have a sales problem or marketing problem. Now, I gotta ask you some really hard questions to do that. And I can't help you with a marketing thing I can, I can make some introductions. But if it's a sales problem, we can talk about it and see if I can help you out. Right? And I feel really authentic having that conversation because I'm helping them get clarity about something in their business, in the data that allows me to kind of play this role that I that I feel strong at which is you know, the guy with the answers right? And I can be open and honest because I'm because I've already framed the outcome. Come, there's only two options, right? You either have a marketing problem, or you have a sales problem. And so the minute where they can give me the no, honestly and cleanly whenever we come to the mutual decision that it's a marketing problem, right? Because essentially, I'm doing the same thing as like what we're classically taught, you know, with the book, hey, like at the end of the conversation, we'll leave it at yes or no, does that sound fair? So I'm just kind of like modifying the frame around like, people come talk to me for two things. And of the two things the other big thing whenever they don't need one of my two things, is that it's a marketing issue. So I'm really good at spotting where the marketing issues are and if you have one or not, would you like to have a conversation? And it's, it's already framed in a way that there's either Yes, and we're going to we're going to keep talking because it's a sales problem or you have a marketing issue and I can't help you with that. And I'm just now seeing that for for the frame that it like really, really is whenever I kind of like do it from like a from like a framing perspective. All right, binary decision at the end of this thing, yes or no? Right?
Well, no, and I like the fact I like the fact that you're getting down to a binary decision, right? Which is ultimately where I think we all need to take our sales conversations, yes or no. And from there we was this process of working together and, you know, making this into you pay me or and I provide a service or, you know, a symbiotic relationship, or you build the project, or Nan gets the neurosurgeon to, you know, say, hey, I'd love you guys to handle this particular product in our office going forward. But, you know, how you get there needs to have a whole lot of the real you in that situation. Right? Absolutely.
And, you know, I'm sorry, go ahead. Good. Well, I was gonna say that like trying to do it all the other ways that I've done it, right, I've always had a little bit of that kind of like, you know, the guy riding on the shoulder trying to drive you know, the machine, you know, as opposed to just being like effortlessly in it and part of that is my C-ness of needing to turn it into a process that I can check the boxes but part of it is also just I'm not wired for people right and you know, the the more time that I like spend, like kind of doing this work and the journaling and the reading and stuff like this, it's like, oh, like like, this is just such a blind spot. I can tell myself that I can go be people centric, but compared to like, Al who does it effortlessly, like there's a there's a level that I don't think is ever going to be there for me, which is not inherently a bad thing. Because I turn it into a game I can then win at it.
But John, I've been in social situations where where you're, you know, you're bringing this guy this guy this introduction, that introduction. I mean, it's it's it is really good. Right?
Yeah. It's also calculated though. Is it? Absolutely man.
Absolutely. And I need I think you need to get up drinking every day. Yeah. Just let the day flow.
Because, because, okay, so Allah speaking very specifically to, to a couple of events that we have put on as part of this nonprofit group and this, and this networking board, right. And so Al came to the first one and he sponsored a bay. So what happens after that is cool, I want Al to come back next year, right? Because we always struggle filling these base. So let me make sure that I can, like hit a home run for Al, you know, let me go find some people for him to talk to. And that gives me a mission. Right? And socially when I have a mission. I'm good, right? That's the that's
Okay. So right. So well, how can that not be every day that you wake up? You have this mission, to be socially engaging with your prospects and people who have problems that you can solve? That would make me there would be nothing that makes me happier than to wake up and solve everybody's problem for a profit or a profit all day long.
Well, that's why that's why I'm currently building This thing that I'm building right is because like, I just want people to practice right. And so you know, from the martial arts thing from from training, Clint you know this in the net is heard so much of it is just like overflow is like, if you're constantly going through it and you're intentional about it, you're going to get really, really good at it. So I know this to be true. So I'm giving like these kind of blocks of like office hours, right? So you can have this kind of sales manager person in your pocket, right? So you can come in there you can, we'll roleplay something, we'll strategize about something or anything else like this. In addition to that, you get free roleplay groups, right? And so I'm giving these people the thing that they want, right? Someone that they can come ask questions to it, I'm giving them the thing that I know that they need, and then it's just a matter of time until the trust sinks in.
Dude, I got it for you. Leather. Leather. What's what you said role playing. I'm like leather, man. You show up wearing like one of those chaps and like a vest. Nothing underneath it. Dude, I think you gotta wait. That's a win. That's a winner,
The little necklace that just says like, you know, something, something aggressive. Yeah. Something aggressive. It just says Clint.
Wearing a choker that says Clint, like it's got a leather strap on the baggy diet. Yeah, just make sure the handle is you know,
I will say that if I was gonna wear another man's name on my neck it would be his because I respect the hell out of the guy.
Whoa, whoa, yeah.
Clint just did this.
Yeah Clint just got uncomfortable.
No, I think he got real comfortable. He bowed up, he's like a rooster.
I mean, who else would you put on your neck?
I can see Nan, Nan's on the home shopping network looking for a Clint necklace right now, she's like, that makes sense.
She's got it on her lower back. Oh,
oh, all right, let's get back to stories and and stories in selling in my my own unique weirdness as I'm finding out new stuff Yeah, you know I, I'm not wired to want to go find that person on an ongoing thing just mentally, right like, so what I'm doing is, is in my framing around these calls is like hey, let me help you find the answer, right and what that does is allows me to come out and be the guy who wants to give them the answer anyway, without any threat to like, Hey, does this then then lead to like, money and revenue? So yeah, I've been positioning it as like, Look, you've got a sales problem or a marketing problem. That's the majority of problems in small business. I can help you figure out what it is. And if it's a sales thing, I can probably help
I like it. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I mean, and I think that, you know, if we keep our processes or our conversations, you know, simpler, right? You know, if something's got to get complicated letting the complication come from the prospect, not from you. Right?
I will say the other day, I hopped on a call and I was doing my framing totally skipped the whole time element. And before we got done, she was like, Oh, dang, I've got another appointment. And I was like, should have should have framed around the time, she should have got that commitment.
Well, I in here's here's something I don't know if Nan and I we got into discussion or I was I started doing some journaling. So some of this just comes out of the fact that was writing on a piece of paper. I think trust and forgiveness are two key components. And what I mean by that you got to trust yourself and you got to be forgiving of Your own mistakes once you've run them through the process of analysis of Where did I go wrong? What could I have done better? Move on. Right? You did? Yeah. Well,
Well yeah. But the way that you move on is you improve the next rep, right? I mean,
Or you don't, and you do the next rep until you do get the improvement you're looking for.
Exactly right. And so my, my whole weirdo mission, right is to be as optimally configured as possible, right? And so, what happens is, I didn't frame around time. And so I didn't manage the time very, very well, because I thought that we had 45 and she had to go with 30. And so like, I was just kind of like hitting the stride of, you know, the roleplay No, mother, and and she's like, Oh, damn, I gotta go. And I'm like, Ah, shit. Like, I didn't get to finish the roleplay somebody gets out of the conversation about what I do. And now it's back to Hey, well, why don't you just send some stuff over? That's the issue. Right? You lose the...
How much does that....
It would've been 30 either way,
Come on, Oh, come on Clint. Really?
They would have went there either way, they were they weren't interested at the end of it. I mean, that's, to me, happens to me all the time. It's like, people will agree with you because they're S's and their I's, right? And they really want to help you. There's a lot of population out there, they're more so than the latter, right? That want to be a part of you and want to help you out and they will agree. And it's just is it's it's horseshit at the end of the day, right? So hey, do you have an hour to this phone call? And if we get to the end, we make an agreement? And they're gonna say yes, because they're afraid they're scared to death to say no. Well, as far as
Well, hold on, though, right? Because we, we spend a lot of time talking about being authentic, right. So of course, none of this stuff works if you're just using it as like a tactic or like a or like a gimmick or something like that. I mean, you have to have the best intentions that you can...
But Clint's talking about the prospect, right? You know that it was horseshit on their side that they you know that they bailed and that they couldn't rearrange their schedule or push something. Meaning if somebody's putting an abrupt stop, usually they're usually telling you ahead of time and not surprising you with it. So I think the reality of what Clint is trying to get to is this just might have been a blown call to begin with. Sure.
Yeah. Okay. Yes. So let me back up. I can agree that that she probably was not going to buy right like I can admit that. But let's also agree that I'm not in the best position possible to get the full no at the end of this thing, because
I think you got the no, dude. Maybe it wasn't no, but it's not a very big word. So that's got both letters.
Because Because here's the deal. If let's just say that was a An hour ago or a week ago, has she reached back out? And if the answer is no, that's your answer. If she was truly interested in truly needed that she'd already reached back out, I would if I needed something. Hey, man haven't heard back from you What's going on? Can we can we finish that phone call?
And it didn't do in 30 minutes what you were trying to do in 45 or an hour? Because I mean, you it's not like you had a three second conversation or Hey, it's not a good call. But you went down that pathway far enough. And I mean, we've all faced it. We've gotten the noes before. And you know, you probably need to be thankful that you didn't have to waste another 30 minutes of your time. You know, she did it for you right out of the situation. So you should be a Thank you. Wow, man. I got 30 minutes of my day that I didn't waste on your ass.
Yeah, and sometimes too...
But hold on, hold on, right because this is important. At the end of it. She goes she goes I want to continue the conversation. Right, of course she said that, which, of course she does, right. And so then, you know, the the, the critical side of me is like is like, Oh yeah, sure you, right. But then the other side of me is like, well, maybe maybe she does. Right. And so how do you suss that out? Other than front loading the conversation with like, hey, at the end of the same can we figure out if this is really worth talking about? Because they might not be and you might end you might end this call telling me you wanna continue when you really don't? Can we just be honest with each other?
If you had said that at the when, immediately after she made that statement that she needed...
I didn't get time, did not get time.
Well, okay, so no Nan and I faced this you know, Nan can speak to this. She probably is so much better at this than I am. You know, you present lunch for an office, you're going to do some business you got to talk to the doctor while you're waiting for him to finish up patients and you know, you're trying to time everything. And I mean, you are in it. And you've been there, John, you know, this whole timing thing. And that doctor comes in gets a plate of food, you're seeing him over there at the buffet line spreads out, and he's getting towards the end, you're trying to figure your approach, and you walk out another tour and you never bug and now Nan gets up and follows him and finds him in his office and says, Oh, hey, yeah, we came by me. I'm so fuming mad at that point. It's gone, man. He's just blown me out of the water.
Now, I'm glad Al said that, because as you were telling your story, John, I was thinking of someone that approached me today trying to sell me something. And I cut them off before they went any further pretty quickly. And I said, you know, I've really appreciate that your efforts in trying to talk to me about this product, but I and I told them, you know, one second little spiel of it's not going to happen. And before I could even say thank you again and goodbye they slammed the phone down Okay, so I was like I don't care if you call me You burned a bridge so what Al said I don't care what goes on if someone cancels on you says no to you whatever leave good terms because you could be burning a bridge that you could potentially need to cross another time in the future so be really careful with that, Al, you burning bridges like
I didn't say that I did anything. I said there was a smile on my happy ass you know going Hey ladies or gentlemen, decision makers way over there so we might as well have a party with the food that I brought everybody.
Also John, I think it's really you know, you're set you're not going to blow up on him and go You gotta freakin be kidding me. Like I've done this. You know, you're not Do that. You're gonna say, Okay, I understand. Um, but you know this, you know this better than the rest of us. You try to engage with them again, when can I call you back? When can I see?
Well, but I have a question. Do you not? Then do the negative reverse? Hey, a lot of times when people say they have to go, I'm really trying to be polite. Yeah. This time?
Oh, well, you How could you not if you saw it coming? Well, I didn't see it coming. She goes, she goes, Hey, real quick, John, I forgot to tell you. Right. I've got another meeting, and I gotta go right now.
And I was well, John, I appreciate you telling me that. And I know you got to go. But usually, you know, when it's fair that it's been a while. Yeah, all you got to do is immediately go to the test of are they blowing me off and will they own it? And if they do, then we probably got it. I feel better about that.
Right? That's fair. You know, I mean, it You know, to be sure I had that moment of being blindsided by like, being irritated that I didn't qualify around time earlier.
So okay, so but that was your issue, not hers, right? Oh, for sure. She brings it to you, your issue probably got in your way. Oh, shit time instead of a job a lot of times, I appreciate you telling me but a lot of times when people say that they're just being polite, and it's a no Oh, is that where we're going with this? And if you said back to me, no, no, no, no, I really want to hear more about that. All right, before you go, What time should we meet again?
Basically, you're to ask you're telling a story by asking it. And in that story, you're asking a question.
Yeah, but you're also getting if they won't make that commitment then then then they need to own the you know, yeah, now that you say that it probably isn't something that I wanted you proceed with. Thanks, John. I do appreciate that kind of honesty. I hope that our paths cross again, and if there's anything I can ever do for you. Please don't hesitate. You got my number. Give me a shout out. Yeah. Right. Clint?
You notice how people, you assume what someone's thinking, Oh, yeah. Talk to them, you you engage further you go. They're like, what? I didn't even think that. So you know, you do have to be careful with assuming you know what someone is doing thinking
Sorry Nan, sorry. Um you know, the way that I've been handling that is like I let them kind of obstacle, it and then we follow up in DMs because that's where it started anyway, right. And that's where I'm getting some of the really good. Like, like, Hey, you know you said this, but I know I hear that a lot. Is this really something that we're working on right now? Well, no, not actually. Okay. Then you said you want to chat again. Do you still? Well, yeah. What do you want to talk about? So Still, you know, it's it's a work in progress because, you know, you lose the immediacy of the emotion when there's text involved right on both sides, right? So that so you can't control the tech, you can't control how they read it right or you know, the tone and the inflection. But also you you lose the immediacy of it, because they can read it and respond to it later on.
Yeah, I mean, I see the value of, of, you know, communicating and opening up conversations the way you're doing it, right. I mean, I've been kind of following along with some of the progression that you've had going on with, you know, social media and, you know, and because you've seen a few of my comments, I mean, they're usually quirky, you know, but to be that way, right? And so, you know, I I find value, I mean, I see where, you know, that little bit of texting that a little bit of involvement to kind of open up the situation for getting into a conversation a little bit quicker. You know, having You know, you've already got some information, you know, glean from that. And but now you're getting to, you know, being able to feel the emotion or the impact of their voice to the things that you say, and hopefully working down to what's the problem? And what you know, is this a fit for fix, right?
Yeah, my KPI right now is, is trying to have five decision maker chats a week, right, and I'm calling a chat, zoom chat. And so what that means is that I'm trying to have five decision maker conversations a day, because one of those, you know, because like, what happens is they kind of like starts and stops and fits, right, because people get busy and everybody's too connected to to everything. So part of this is just trying to adjust to kind of having like, 24 or not really 24 hour but what seems like 24 hour availability to people, right? Because everyone's so connected to their phones. So. So throughout the throughout the day, I'm trying to have five chats with like, Oh, hey, cool. You know, I'd like to hear more about that and tell you what I do. Can we hop on a call right, with a goal being a Five decision making conversations like zoom chats per week, because that gets me to the revenue goals that I have on, on the trajectory I'm currently on.
So So help me understand what kind of businesses or people? I mean, are you looking for C level suites? Are you looking for top sales executives, sales managers? I mean, define who your general audiences.
The people that I'm going after are very, very small agencies. So So marketing agencies,
What's an agent, what's an agency? What are you referring to? And
so really, it's gotten the terms gotten a little money, right, but but essentially freelancers, right, who have figured out the digital marketing thing, so that way they can do whatever they do for clients, whether it's copywriting, or, you know, video creation, you know, there's so many silos in the digital like marketing realm. And so all these people are really good at what they do, but none of them want to sell. So I work with them to help them build out a process that makes sense for them. And then we we we have them do it until it's repeatable. Then I go find someone that do it for them because we we've got the repeatability of the process. So that's kind of my main target.
So you, if I heard you correctly, then you go out, you speak to these people in the, you know, the marketing, digital marketing, you know, you know, areas, and then you help them build a sales process so that they can then go hire and train people to sell for them. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Or you can hire me to do it for you. Right. So okay, yeah, so there's like the initial kind of like, like sales blueprint with the tech and the process and everything else like this. And then I make them do it until until the numbers are dialed in. So that way they can like actually be like, No, I've done this this way. With these numbers. I know that this works, let's figure out the soft spots and coach up from there. And so they've got that that credibility. And then you know, I help along the way about like, Okay, what are you struggling with, where's the process breaking down all those things.
And who are these people generally? Who are their clients?
Um, I mean, small small business owners, right? Yeah, they're, they're typically, you know, you know, I've got clients that do, like $500 a month social media packages, and then I've got clients to do, you know, $9,000 marketing retainers and paid ads and, you know, branding initiatives and all like, like, like the whole gambit. So
And what do you find is their biggest? I mean, is it is there one general theme to the problems they're having in the sales arena?
Well, yeah, you know, there's this constant pressure of do I do I work for the clients and take care of them or do I go sell and prospect because you know, these people live in this kind of boom, bust situation, right. There's a lot of work so too much work for you to prospect and sell. And so then your work dries up in that it's Oh, damn, I gotta go prospect and sell it. But you know, so they're they're constantly fluctuating between these two extremes. And so what I'm saying is cool, let's build you out a process so that we stabilize that for yourself first, right? So also showing them that, you know, they can do both things well, when there is structure and process in place, and then cool, now we can find someone else. And as long as they're hitting these, these activity accounts and KPIs and things like this, they're going to, they're going to continue with the same trajectory. So I'm giving these people a way to manage salespeople forever, as long as they continue down that path, or I will help you work with them to make sure that they're performing at the levels that you were able to perform at.
So then you sort of step in as a sales manager to another crew that they bring on board once the process has been put in place.
Can be, right. So so it's kind of modular, I don't have to but but if you want me to, because sometimes people don't want to manage people's numbers, right? That's totally fine. I'm really good at that. Let me do it. You know, and so, we have that conversation at the end. Once we have found you know, You know, if we just did the blueprint, then it's a pretty quick turnaround because we just document everything we build out the CRM, we've we've figured out everything that needs to hook up and Bob's your uncle. But if you want me to go find you a closer that we build you an ad, we've figured out the commission structure, we do all these things. So that way, when I go out to the closer communities that I'm part of and familiar with, I can put together an ad bring some people in, we do assessments on them, and then I make a recommendation about who you should hire and stuff like that.
Cool. Yeah. for understanding what you're doing these days, because I know, yeah, we're all kind of making these sort of adjustments to sure, you know, with the new normal, and who our clients and, you know, and you know, I've shifted gears and on my side of the fence, and I'm sure Clint, and I know, Nan. I mean, yeah, we're in constant discussions about, you know, how, what our next step is and where we're going.
So I mean, I still do all the other same stuff, right? I mean, if you have CRM questions, I'll just come in and I'll and you can pay me out. And I will figure out your CRM questions or the right points to track or you know, all of that stuff as well. But what I'm finding is that like, this helps two communities that I really like passionate about because I, I love the small business community, right. And if you can figure out the digital marketing thing, then you know, from like a lead gen side, then it's just, it's just printing cookies, right? Or, you know, insert your favorite metaphor there. But once you can get to that point with the digital marketing, then let's figure out the number on the sales side. And then let's just get someone in there to do it as well as you can, because that that should be the thing, right? And that helps all the salespeople I know who have been laid off and don't really know what to want to go do. And, you know, it's kind of hard to sell cars or real estate, you know, for some people, depending upon how seriously you take this and what the market looks like. So there's a lot of people who are moving over to being home based closers and home based salespeople. So I get to help these two communities at once. One of the things I'm doing this quarter is building like a course that shows you how to do all of this stuff. Right, from what the business structure and the tax into, like how to go out and find, like good people to work for how to sell well, here are the things to be looking for, here's how to build a process and everything else like that. So that way I can help other people make that transition.
I like it. Yeah, thank you. It's so good.
I, you know, the, I feel like every time we chat offline, you know, like, like, I'm kind of like a rapid burst of like, cool, I gotta go, I gotta go. Because it's like, you know, I'm working a lot, but it's stuff that I'm really passionate about. It's not just like, you know, all drudgery and, you know, dismay over here.
So, are you are you seeing another question? not interrupt. Are you seeing a reasonable level of monetization of this? I mean, you know, are you are you are you seeing a clear path to what the value is and what the cost should be to the to the consumer?
Well, the thing about it is, is nobody wants to be a salesperson, right? Like, like, I spent a lot I'm thinking about this, but a lot of these people just just really want to do the things that they're really good at. Right? And on a certain level, I get that, right. I mean, it's really easy for me to like, swing to that side of it, because I am a C I'm not wired to go out and find people to talk to you. So, the so these people are a lot like me, they're really good at what they do, and they just want to do what they do. Okay, awesome. I'm asking you to do this for a little bit. So that way we can figure out kind of like how to, like, actually get your business to where you want it to go. And then I will get someone else to do it for you. And people love this idea. Right? And then, and then we we talked about how they're gonna get their lead gen in place. And you know, that's why I know so many marketers because it's like, cool. How do you want to build your business? Well, this way, Okay, awesome. This is the guy to go talk to you for that and then you can come talk to me, but you need strong, strong... You got to have strong lead gen in place if you're ever going to replace yourself because no one is going to go hunt and kill as as humbly as you are. Unless you give them a big enough slice of the thing. And most of the People who are closers and working from home or 1099, right? So that's why I want to cover the tax stuff and the business formation stuff with them because also it leads lends itself some legitimacy to this like skill that we all see a ton of value and that a lot of people treat as like a second class skill, right? Oh, well, you're in sales because you couldn't find a good job. No, I'm in sales because I enjoy it. You know, but a lot of people don't don't view it that way. So man, I feel like I feel like I have monopolize the entire length of this episode, man. I'm wildly uncomfortable about it.
Speaking to Clint.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Clint is just down there drinking, I think non alcoholic beer still. What are your thoughts on this buddy?
On what?
The stuff I'm talking about. So the people don't want to be salespeople and I'm trying to help them out of that.
Stay out of it.
Okay, I have a guy have a question for Clint cuz you're, you know, the big whoop dee doo VP of sales, you know, the corporate icon of the group? Your, your sales staff, how many? You know, how many? How big traditionally is it in a, I know you work for big company and it's got segments in different areas. I mean, talk a little bit about your sales people. And you know, how it works in your industry when you start talking about sales and the people who do it?
Yeah, I mean, you're, you're in the industry, there's so many different levels of what people can and can't do. You can have one guy that, you know, success to him is $5 million a year and then you get another guy that might be 100 million dollars a year. So it's really capacity of the person and then you got to figure that into your equation of how you how do you how do you reward the guy that does 100 equally to the guy that does the five. So there's a little bit of a math problem there of, you know, you know, just just capacity. And, you know, even even at the project manager level in construction, you got guys that, that can run a $2,000 job really well, but then there, but they can't run a 20 million. And you get guys that can run billion dollar projects, but can't run a $2,000 project. So they're, it's spread around everywhere, but I will say the average is probably you're looking for most people in construction to do like 10 million a year in sales, you know, so if you're a $30 million company, you'd want to do probably have two guys and hope that 6 to 7 of that business is coming in naturally just because you have a brick and mortar.
Okay, then my question is the sales component versus the the guy who's doing the work. Does your sales guy overlap into the production side or does he step away and it becomes a whole nother group and another issue you Just stand by the project through the end of the construction as part of the solution on, you know, issues that may come up. I mean, what's his involvement after the signing of the contract?
I mean, it's, it's all over the board Doc, because I've worked I've performed both. In both scenarios, I've worked in companies that expect the opposite of this spectrum where you, you literally go find it, you you hunt it, you scan it, you kill it, you eat it, all that good stuff, and then you're there to clean up the dishes afterwards as well. And then there's some that just I need you to go out and find prospects to bring back to the door. We'll handle it from there. And I'm a the way we operate it at least at my company is is is kind of a right in between that is I need you to go out and find the right prospects and need you to find the right projects for us to bid that fit our group. You know, not not wish list stuff right? This is let's get our base of business. With the core group of customers that we want doing, doing stuff in the right industry that we want, and once we have that fulfilled then then you go searching right for vertical market growth.
Question. So when you say you go find that, right, who determines what that right candidate or what that right project looks like? Is that your job or a group of people to decide, here's what the sales guys should be looking at?
You know, ultimately, you know, it's, it's, if you're in a good company, I think it's a group decision, right? You're all sitting around around table discussions, figuring out what the hell we're good that we're good at, we perform that and you're going off past people, past resumes and experience who you got on the team who's available, like all that stuff plays in ultimately, in my company that falls in my lap right now is to to figure out what that vertical market growth is, and and why we're choosing that and, and I got to back that data, you know, to say, Hey, I don't know why you're chasing multifamily student housing. When all we've ever done is lose money in it, we get a lot of sales, we lose a lot to revenue, right? And so why are we in that? Should we completely dump it? Well, you can't dump it because you got to have revenue to pay bills. So it's not an on off switch, he might take you a five year plan, and you got to start putting that in play. And it's the commitment from everybody involved, right? You can't just flip the switch and say, Okay, now we're going to do industrial work today, when yesterday, you were building houses for a living, right? Because you're starting over your new startup company at that point. So there there's a ton of strategy involved. And if there's not you're, you're you're failing in my mind, because I think you really got to put some thought into what you're doing it sounds from what I've heard over the last, you know, 10-15 minutes to John, you've put a lot of thought into why and, and what you're doing with your business. You're trying to find a section of a market that maybe doesn't even exist and you're creating, right that's that's pretty, that's pretty bold and pretty cool and You know me, I like to be a part of shit like that. So I commend you on that. But there's a lot of people out there that just take what everybody said in the past and run with it. I, I've worked with salespeople in the past that Oh, why I do this because that guy over there did that before me. That's like Yeah, man, you got to pioneer your way a little bit right?
Can I can I got another question for you, Clint? Um, have you guys re evaluated the market you're in since COVID and some of the changes? I mean, are you you're saying kind of where you stand in this whole construction arena? And and if so, are you are you guys looking at making any changes to adapt to the new normal?
Yeah, so I will tell you that I pay pretty close attention to where for example, right we I live in Houston or our market is Houston primarily. When you see a project come out, that's city of Houston you know, new school building or whatever the chances of the the city of Houston or any city for that matter, actually have any available funds to make that a real project in this in this environment of COVID they're probably not going to be investing hundreds of millions of dollars into a new project right now. Right. So So that's something that a year ago would have looked really attractive, because we do work with them. But that's not the case today, right? I why I'm chasing a pipe dream that might drag me out for two years rebidding and bidding until the funds are there versus looking at a manufacturing plant. That isn't the exact opposite effect of because of COVID they are producing twice as much product because people are buying more. That's the market I want to be in right now. Right because that's it's a today fix. And I'm all I'm and I would say this probably for most is I'm trying to keep my head above water, and I will do whatever it takes to do that. And if it takes me switching and training and learning and figuring out any way to do that in a different market, damn right, we're gonna do it that way.
But But when does when does that time concept for the projects because Nan and I and other people that I work around, we throw around kind of the same things because we wake up to this new normal every day in healthcare. But sometimes, you know, I have to also, you know, analyze what's that time look like? And, you know, so So I mean, sometimes these projects, yeah, it takes too long to shift those gears, I guess is what I'm saying.
Yeah. So and that's a really good point is When is that going to happen? So for example, financially, where we used to look at revenue on the year sales on the year backlog, all that stuff. We're more focused on the book and burn of today, where it's Go get me something because I have lights I got to keep on, right? It's, it's down. Everybody's down, right? So I got to go find what's gonna bring food on and put it on the table today, not in 2021 and 22. Like we would have done three or four months ago.
Okay, so that's, that's where I was going with how you know, how long can you survive a change? Because, you know, going into a change if you can't turn the dollar quick enough to put the money in the bank? Yeah, you've shot yourself in the foot because the time constraint, right?
so so right now I I have I have a great backlog for 2021. It's a record backlog. It's a backlog that we've never dealt, you know, we've been close, but this is something that's truly amazing that we even have the backlog, but that doesn't do jack shit if I can't get there and survive this to do that work in 2021.
And how do you how do you know that's the 2021 that that work's gonna be there?
Well, you don't I mean, you have commitments, right, we've sold work, we have commitments or, or let's say we signed a contract, they broke ground, but now they're on hold. And now the job's postponed for another six months. I see that all over all over Texas right now, you see gas stations that, you know, were were dirt pile, you know, in February, and then all sudden they laid the concrete and now they're just a concrete pad sitting out there with equipment sitting there that's bought and paid for but you, you don't have the money to invest into the actual project because you just you just can't. So that project will probably happen, you know, maybe or somebody will come in and buy that person out and finish the project because that's a smart investment for somebody down the road. But that might not happen in this year. 2021. It might have been 2025. The good news is you can kind of put put your put it on your bankroll for a while.
Question. And Answer. I think I think owl is thinking the same way that I am. And I I'm curious if this is true. Couldn't it just be said that this historical backlog is just like kind of what's normal for the industry. And the reason why you guys are struggling right now is because they didn't have you on the team and your method of selling, so, so a gap was going to naturally appear and COVID just made it bigger.
Yeah, yeah, we I absolutely predicted that with everybody involved on our team is that we were going to have when you when you I started in October, my very first day that I started, we had the conversations of everything that's gonna everything that we're struggling through from here till probably June of 2020. This was last year is not going to be because of what we're doing in October to then it's going to be everything that happened in the past six months to a year. Right. And I can't help you change that I can only make it better, right and, and everything that naturally flows in is going to be a bonus. So we set some upfront rules, you know, with me personally and professionally with I need a year, give me a, I need a solid year before you can make any determination about how we're performing, right, you're gonna see metrics along the way, and you're gonna see growth. If you're not seeing growth in the first, you know, three, four months. It's it's a probably a pretty good indicator, but it's not. It's not a total fact yet, you know. So, so we absolutely did predict that. And having having that downside, but nowhere near to the level of COVID-19 stopping the market, right and the economy. We couldn't have foreseen that. But
You know, the thing is, is whenever, whenever we chat about, you know, the role and what's going on and stuff like this, I always get the impression and maybe this is just me and head trash, that that it's not going very smoothly that you haven't had much success, but like hearing that story that you just talked about, like I think I think that your successes, abundantly clear, right,
Yeah. Well, John can understand that. And then well one me and my personality probably mainly just the way that I am geared. I'm never going to tell you it's it's fucking perfect dude I love this you know, this is just going smooth because in my mind I'm, if everything's going just like we planned it I'm making a new plan to make it better and so therefore I'm I'm back I'm always a ground zero me personally. My team on the other hand as long as they're killing it, right and they're, they're, they're moving forward with the plan that was in place. Hey, the company is going to survive. I'm only training I'm here to make it better. Right so I'm I'm never going to give you a thumbs high and say yeah, so
On that note, guys, we're word 52 minutes so let's wrap this two episode series up talking about stories. Let's go around just real quick starting with Clint. You know talking to D's you know about about using stories, you know, what do you got real quick?
Yeah, you know, story. These are pretty natural story tellers, much to the essence the I's are except for one is about themselves a little more, right? And, and we're probably gonna get a chuckle there. But you're really good at telling stories about yourself. And you've got to gear that the other way. And you don't have to fake it. I'm not trying to ask you to, you know, sit there and be this fake person that you don't want to be. But when you when you tell a story, make sure it's, it's something that they're going to be interested on the other side, right, don't just tell it because you think you're on this pedestal and everybody looks up from the ground level to you that I'm here to tell you that that's not the case, right? You're as equal as anybody on this planet. And when you tell that story, you need to make sure that their body language is invested. When they ask you a question about it. It's not them trying to be nice, it's truly it's truly investment. And, and I think you need to tell the stories that also get something in return a story in return from them, you know, especially if you're talking to an I, and you're digging for information, you're going to tell a story. And so that when they tell their story back to you, you're getting information in your sales process. So that you know, just just warn you to shift it from I and and shift it to them.
Awesome. Al, as an I?
You know, Clint kind of hit on a little bit of it that, but I don't go in to a sales conversation or a situation looking to tell a story because I know it's gonna happen automatically. Right? So you don't have to force it. So don't even try. But what you have to hold back on is when like, Clint said, they begin to tell you their story. Don't tell them a better one. Go with that. Right?
Yeah. Nannette, what do you got?
So the two things that I'm thinking are engagement and listen, you know, so your story should be Engaging, but you also need to listen to their response. Listening is huge. That's fair.
For me, yeah, for me as a C's, like, you know, don't don't use them with an agenda like, like use them whenever they make sense and and they're, and they're authentic right. And there's always another level of not using the technique for the sake of it being a technique, right, like, like, put that technique down and just use it as effortlessly as possible and try to try to approach it from that angle, which is not what we do normally as C's, right? Like, we love to collect these techniques and you know, all this stuff. So try to put all that stuff down once you have the wraps and just make sure that you're being as as authentic and humanly driven as possible, even though it's annoying and slower than you want to go and all that stuff. So that's the thing. That's the thing. Yeah. That's, that's
Golly, that's good, that that's, that's, that's a nugget right there. Yeah, goddamn this is going slow, right!
Well and and that's why I'm I'm working very specifically in this in this industry that I am of this kind of like hybrid of Cool, let's just get people to raise their hands so that way we can, you know put farmers right into roles and you know have them crush, right it's kind of it's kind of the thing I'm trying to build, right and from the sales side I've got it down, I just got to find like the marketing side of it so that way I don't really want to be the guy who's trying to do both of these things is like a, like a business in a box deal. But you know, having partners who are really, really solid marketers and delivering the right kinds of results for their clients, and then I can help them figure out how to have the right kinds of conversations, and then Bob's your uncle. So yeah, it's all about making your mark I guess. Right and getting in where you fit in.
So yeah, I like it.
All right. All right. So if you've been listening Thank you so much. This is a little bit longer than the the episodes we've been doing recently, but it felt right to go long. So if you know someone else in sales, please share this with them. If you've not taken the assessment yet, and you want to please reach out to us DISC@salesthrowdown.com. Yeah, shoot us an email. We read every one of them leave us a review, please, because that's what really kind of makes this whole thing go. So thanks for tuning in, and we'll talk everybody soon. Thank you.