We're taking the week off, but we wanted to rebroadcast this episode from February. Now that it's the end of a long, hard year, closing sales might be harder than ever, which means that building trust is more important than ever. And we discuss one great way to do that in this episode. Happy Thanksgiving!
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We all know that prospects are more likely to buy from us if they trust us. But do you know what one of the easiest ways to build that trust is in sales?
It's going into every conversation with skepticism.
This episode was originally recorded much earlier this year, back when we could still safely be in the studio together.
But now that it's the end of the year (finally!), closing deals gets a lot harder for most of us.
One thing that can help is to build more trust with your prospects by asking questions and answering questions with more questions. The more skeptical you are in a nurturing—not challenging—way, the deeper into their needs and concerns you'll be able to dig.
So we're re-releasing this episode because it's always going to be important, but it might be even more helpful now.
Are you a skeptical salesperson? Is asking lots of questions difficult for you? Taking a DISC personality assessment can help you learn to communicate easier and frame questions in a way that's comfortable for you. Text us for more info!
And please subscribe and leave us a review! We read and appreciate every single one!
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Let's get ready to Throwdown!
Let's go again. Welcome to the show everybody. Today we're talking about an interesting topic because we're talking about trust, and also skepticism, the other side of that coin. Because my old business partner, his favorite line in the world was that you can lie to a salesperson and still go to heaven. And that's true because I lie to salespeople. Right, I think we all have probably pretty recently and you know, so if we're going to lie to them, we have to expect that we're going to get lied to.
Versus taking the truthful route. Hey, I'm not interested. Thanks for calling, click.
So let's talk about how most people play the sales game now, right of trying to overcome the objections, which comes across as pressure. Agreed, right? As opposed to, if you just qualify, qualify on the front end, then you don't have to do the whole, you know, let me let me take this objection and try to like smash it out to half court, you know, and overcome it. So the I'm not interested. Well, let me tell you why you should be interested. And then this whole game starts, right. Like that's how most people do it. So by that token, you got a lie.
Or not.
I was gonna say, I don't. Now, I can't
You never lie to a salesperson?
I cannot say that in the past I haven't. But I have learned to respect that person. They're just a salesperson, just like I'm a salesperson. So I go, man, you know, like, I get a phone call. Like, man, I really I appreciate this is your job. I'm just I'm not gonna go down this road with you. I'm not interested and they're like Alright, thanks and they hang up. Now I have had someone be a little more aggressive couple people. And I'll just, again, reiterate, super sorry, but I'm gonna hang up on you now and I hang up. But I really think it's important not to, my brother, he cracks me up. But he loves to play games with him. He like, Yeah, man, let me get my father. He's like, really? Or my wife, or he's really into this and he'll put the phone down for 30 minutes and the guy's just sitting there waiting. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, that's so mean. I just I'm not gonna do that. I think you have to res-, you know.
As I said, I'd take the direct route. I now have I lied to salesman, yes, about interest rates and getting a better deal and forcing that hand when when maybe I didn't have that interest rate in hand. I've said, Well, my bank will do this. If you can beat that rate. I don't care who issues the loan. Sure. Right. And maybe I didn't have that all locked down, and I'm seeing where that could go. So I'll test that way. If that's a lie, then sure I do lie. But I don't jerk them around that. You know, if I've set a time we try to make that meet and I just reverse on them. Yeah,
Well, okay, so I think for me when I'm talking about lying to the salesperson it's the like the worst version of it. Let me tell you why I'm here today. Right we're here in your neighborhood, we're working on some of your neighbors homes, you know Ben down the street? Well, he invited us in and I just want to see when we could come in and I'm like, Hey, I'm not interested. Well, it's a free thing. I don't want it.
Free sucks.
Yeah, right. And so when when you don't respect me enough to like, take my no, then I have you know, I'm not gonna like slug it out with you right here. I have I have other stuff to do.
Or you're not good enough to give me a hook. Well, that interests me.
It's just like everything else though. It's just like in sales when you when you're trying to gain a new client. You verbiage is everything so your response to a salesperson is everything as well. So you can close that door pretty easily if you give them the correct respectful, Gosh, this is not gonna happen, it's not gonna happen.
Or if the, if you're honest with them, completely understand 99 out of 100 people feel exactly the way you do if you can get them to pause, but if there's no pause, skip it, next. Because you're in that game, that's the game you're playing at that level. Now, if you're a bit you know, b2b maybe a little you know, you're finding a way in through the you know, the gatekeeper the white knight to the decision maker. But you know, some some sales arenas are going to be just a numbers game, and they may bring out a little more aggressive individual to play that part for sure. So you know, different levels of sales, different levels of aggression, different levels of professionalism, you know, used car salesman all the way up to you know, IT guys that probably have a real client because you know, they've sent out feelers or whatever that marketing program is that already hooks a warm lead. So you got it. I got to see it for what it is.
Yeah, I I agree with it. I, I don't like the the idea that you know, I will sometimes like fabricated reason like, like why it's going to be I no whenever I've just like made the decision. But I just don't really want to deal with someone who's going to try to put like a full court press on me to get me to a yes whenever it's like look, I've already said no. So let me dig. Let me dig in here and come up with something so that way it's like you take it as a real no kind of thing.
Sure. Is Clint gonna say anything today.
Yeah, he's being super uncharacteristically quiet.
I think the D just wants to shoot the finger at him. And
I mean, I I literally have these phone calls. Probably daily.
Oh, yeah. Because you get sold more than I think I think anybody else here at the table.
I mean, it's it's daily for sure. Yesterday, you know, guy called and he says, Hey, do you have 26 seconds, I said I have 25, go. And so he kind of laughed and I said look, so just give me the skinny real quick cuz I'm about to head into a meeting which is a lie right now. It's a precursor to hurry the fuck up because I don't want to hear this pitch. And so he starts and I just say, Okay, look, you're trying to sell me this program, I use this and this and this and let me tell you why. I use this because we already had it that's already paid for. I don't want to transfer all this information. I'm sure you have a great product. It's not for me. And he's like, thanks for the information. Click Yeah, took all of about two minutes versus...
So something I'll do sometimes if if it's something that I'm interested in, right, and we we hop on a call because I'm betting a partner or like a new CRM or something like this. I'll set my frame just like I would if I was the salesperson talking to the prospector. It's like, hey, look, I got 30 Minutes with Us.
If it if I look like that I'm, I'm good. But I think it's how you set it up. Right? So it's, it's a special truthful up front, just like man, I am just not I'm not doing it right now, as well.
That's how it should be. I think you should treat those people the way you would want to be treated if you had to make the same phone call because you do make those
As long they stay within the boundaries that I would stay within.
When when deviate from what we agreed to, yeah, even as a buyer, when you deviate from that, you're you're dead to me. Like it's just over. Like you had the rules, put them in front of you pretty plainly and you broke them. So I'm out. Because what else are you going to break down the road? This is the first interaction with us doing business together. What else are you willing to do to try to get around what I'm telling you? So you're just not a salesperson to me.
Yeah. So I'm betting this company that I'm potentially going to partner with. And I sent an email and he fired back and he's like, when can we chat? And I said, we're not there yet. I'm looking for this information, this information, this information, and then I'm waiting for him to like, you know, go for the no, or, you know, call it over or something along those lines. And he just answered all my questions. And I was kind of like, oh, man, I appreciate you answering this. This is like super helpful. I need to do some thinking on it and kind of check some stuff and then I can let you know, and he was like, okay, and it was so nice. Right. And I think we have talked about this on the show about do you force people into your process, or are you okay kind of, you know, following there's. Yeah, right.
I mean, I mean, it's a tug of war.
There's a rapport thing there. Because if that guy was like, No man, you know, we got to get on the call and all this stuff. Me because I've got all the skepticism in the world about you know that this kind of thing, you would have blown me out of the water. Right. So because that is the other side of the coin, right, because like as salespeople, and we know that people are Oh everything's good, because it's probably not, but you just don't want. You don't want to have the conversation right now. Right? I mean, it's not typically a no for forever, it's just a no for today kind of thing. So, how do you how do you balance the skepticism when you're the salesperson?
Clint?
Yeah,
You know, here's my balances. I think people were genuinely good. I mean, there's some evil folks out there. But I, I'm, I'm, I believe in the person. I'm skeptical of the process or the facts or the figures until I see them play out. That way. We're going to be able to do this deal because of what you brought to the table. Now, I think genuinely, you may think that and you're not trying to, you know, go go around me or shyster me, or, or, you know, take me down a path. I don't want to go. But when somebody says, Oh, this is a perfect fit, well, they don't really know that. Yeah, maybe I'm the one that's going to decide that. So you can't tell me. Now I genuinely believe you think it is. That's not the key factor here. The factor is, does it match up to what I need my wants and needs? And does it solve a problem for me?
So that kind of sounds like you want to deal with sales people who are like me, right? Facts, logic figures, they're not the they're not the big talker. They're not trying to do the big come on and too much rapport and things like that.
You know, it varies from individual to individual, because some people just come in with packets that they're, they didn't build the data. Yeah, they're just on the sales side and they're on on the service side, and there's some missing components there that can cause this deal to fall apart. But do I trust what they're telling me or that they think it's the truth. Okay? And there's been times I'm like, dude, somebody lied to you. You know, and I gotta go I'm getting the sense that Yeah, and I'm, you know, so we take it from there. So if you can keep it as an adult adult conversation with a lot of truth coming from both sides, we all have misconceptions. Oh, I thought it was this, but it's not. And the one thing in my business particularly when it comes to spinal hardware, if I'm like putting nuts bolts and screws in somebody's back and it's I'm the guy that you know, is there the face to this product? The manufacturer, you know what I asked them? When this F's up, a) how will I know? What am I going to hear, what's going on? Because it's all easy peasy till something snapped. Right? And now you've stripped something out and how do you get it out of that person's back? So I always want to know, what's the, you know, where's this thing gonna break down on me? And how do I prevent that because everything else is going to do what it said it was going to do.
So ultimately to me it sounds like it's a trust issue issue. You know, I think when you have someone coming to your door that you've never seen before, I in my business, the reason I'm successful is because I have connectedness with other people. And again, I know I just throw up relationship but I do think that is just so vital. So when you have someone or I go to someone that I don't know it's they're very, you know, a cold call. Go ahead.
Well, let me stop you when you said you trust, you build trust because you follow through on the things that you do. I've seen it time and time again next time patients come back in and talk to that doctor and give you a good accolade. You build the relationship, but you also walk the walk for the talk that you're putting out there.
Well, and the same thing with working with Dr. Daniel, or all these years. I've seen it and I've said this before that people trusting because they know that he's, he does care about what he investigates. He tries to figure out what what if this scenario happens and so when someone is cold calling you and you don't know them, you're going to back off when you're calling on that person for the first time. You You're going to have to do some relationship building even in that very first call. You can't just call and say you need this or what what you said that guy came to the door. Yeah, you know, he should have bonded a little bit, he should have you know, said, Hey, how you doing? There, there is some weight,
I disagree.
I do too.
Okay, so talk to me,
Sometime's your timeframe doesn't allow that. Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna have... The one guy I bonded with, okay, was was from a financial door to, you know, it's a
A Jones kind of thing?
Yeah, that and it was the middle of August, and he was in a suit. And he's sweating buckets, and I'm like this is committed. I'll listen to what this guy has to say. Because this cold air coming from my front door is probably the only relief this guy has from an August, and I ended up doing business with the guy, put my kids, yeah, I was like, man...
Because why? You had, maybe it wasn't trust. But you you had weight in that he was he's
That he's out there in the middle of the day on an August.
Kind of the same thing where you you're giving up. But Clint, you want to argue to that as well. Go ahead.
No, I mean, I look at those guys. And when you said that situation earlier. You know, a lot of people like to either just slam the door in somebody's face, which is just completely rude. It was terrible, right? I mean, I hate rudeness when it comes to stuff like that. Give the guy five minutes. Now there is a boundary because this is my home, you are on my property that maybe I don't want you there. I have kids and yeah, you know, protection stuff. So you have a boundary, you know, you shouldn't cross this line, sort of sort of thing. So there's, you know, I've had those people come up and you know, they knock on the door. Hey, do you have 20 minutes to talk about Home Security? I'm like no I mean, I probably do.
It's in my waistband.
But I'm literally watching the Alabama game and Sorry, bro. But uh, you know, what I usually say to them is, Hey, I appreciate the fact that you're out here, like doc said, beating down the bush and it's got a, Saturday morning tough fucking job, you know? Yeah. So I look at that and I have a little bit of compassion for it and say, sit down on the porch swing and you're more than welcome to practice practice your, I'm not buying but you're more than welcome to run your pitch by me if it if you want to get repetition in.
That's very nice. Teacher. Way to go Clint.
Well, it's not even that, it's more it's the quickest way to get him off my porch because if he knows I'm not going to buy but he's going to run through his pitch really quick. What do you think? That was pretty good. I'd change this and this if it was me. It works better on me. Alright, have a nice day. See you later. Hey, here's a card in case you ever think about it. Right? What? Two minutes
I like that. So the I think that most of the times that I feel like okay, I just want out of the situation, that's when you know, it's these cold knockers, you know, they come up and they and they want to give you the The insulated windows at the roof inspections and stuff like this. And it's like that the thing that comes down to is like you've interrupted my day. I've got something else going on. This is not the top priority for me. And they're trying to sell the whole thing.
You are a C, that makes a difference too.
Well, maybe but I think because we all know that if you're gonna be cold calling or cold knocking or doing new things like you're trying to set the appointment, yeah, right to like, come back later. And you're trying to sell me on this idea that I should let you up on my roof and my,
Through my house, on the roof. Come on man.
Come on, you know, that's a fairly big ask after knowing you for like all of three seconds. Why would I let you do that?
It's like the security home security guy that pulls up in a Chrysler in your driveway and gets out in sweatpants and he's like, hey, do you trust me to wire up your house was security? No, I don't. Joan, you know, your name's Mike and it's Mike Security, no thanks bro.
So back to my point. It is a trust issue that you have to and it it does matter how you respect someone and you give them a moment. It does matter.
And I also think if you're out there, if you are that guy, right beating down the doors, because, look, that's a, that's a way to sell. I think you need to be honest with yourself and be looking for some pain and get the truth out of people, right. When when they tell you the truth, you know, trust that what they're telling you is, you know, this guy obviously doesn't want to talk to me, that's fine. You know, leave a card, whatever you do, because he might, you know, might stick it on the fridge. And hey, if you're selling, you know, roof repairs, and the storm comes through, just because you dropped the card off and you're on his fridge might be the guy he calls when he needs, right.
And that's important fact that you just brought up to that don't burn a bridge. So if you're, you know, of course, someone's coming, you're not burning a bridge with that person necessarily. But if you're in sales, and you act like that, can you know someone doesn't do what you want them to do? Don't burn bridges.
I honestly think the best door knocker people that I've ever done business with is like the AC repair guy that literally walks up. Hey, just wanna let you know I work in your area. I'm right here down the road. Here's my card if you ever need anything, give me a shout. Thanks for your time, boom, gone. And I've used those people. Yeah, I've met you. I know your name. I know what you do. Now, six months later, I need AC work.
You know, but the bad side of that coin, right is that if you're that guy's boss, right, you're not getting any feedback. Yeah, you're not getting any feedback, you know, and you're caught in the paradigm of hope, you know, you're hoping that these people are going to follow you and stuff like that. So it's not the best...
But once you're out there shooting for his contacts, one, but the other side of your if you knock on enough doors, if that's your business, and that's your business model. You're going to hit one that somebody that days, everything just went out. Yeah, right. That's your sell today. That's the number that you take back.
And I've, I've lived on the sales side of that. And I've also been on the consumer side of that. I think there's a game plan that you can put together for whatever sale you're trying to make. That does two things builds trust and minimize skepticism. And however you do that depending on like the skeptic, like Mike's you know, ac repair, right? Instead of one of the bigger names But if Mike is ever present in a geographic region that's not too large, and he can get some exposure, then he gets some credibility and people like to see credibility, whether it's that they heard it in your voice, or referrals. And you can build credibility in a New York minute you come sit in front of me with a problem. And I say, not sure but I really think this is what it is and it might have been overlooked. Let's go do this test. It depending on the severity of the issue, and patients going to go Whoa, I really, you know, I don't make any promises. But again, it builds that credibility of maybe this was what was missed, or I know exactly what you're having. I completely understand. Have you thought about this, whoa, no.
The, that sometimes drives me nuts, right? You know, because like there's there's too much of like the forced rapport. Oh, yeah, man I know, I know, right? I know exactly where you are. I've dealt with this as well, in the back of my head. I'm like, Man, you don't? Come on. You haven't, you know, the but this happens a lot, right? Because they're like, they're like, you know, build rapport build rapport, and there's like a bad way of building rapport when you're coming across as fake.
But we use diagnosis codes in medicine. And it is as factual as we can try to make it sure within a certain dynamic, oh, you're a male, she's a female, but she had both have bicep muscles, right? And so so you can really, if you're saying I'm skeptical of the physician, I disagree, because we're running just a straight algorithm. Nothing more, nothing less
There is a wordplay there that you got to be careful of is, I know exactly. You gotta get rid of that word. I didn't say exactly. So into your point. So I run this in my business a lot. It's like, somebody comes to me with this huge it's, it's the biggest problem they've ever had. And you got to remember that's they, not, you It's important to them. You got to take yourself out of the equation.
Showing empathy is something that doesn't really resonate with the C. Right? And sometimes not with the D.
Oh, no, I want you to have your facts.
But I can't get them till we have a conversation. And I'm saying, Yeah, I understand exactly. So. It's clarity I'm providing. Yes, I understood. With somebody like you. Absolutely. I see you coming. So when I sit there, I started asking you questions and putting back on you to tell me more information. Yeah. And remember, pain doesn't count. Because you got a headache. And I have a headache. Who has the worst headache? I do. It's in my head. I feel it. absolutely, yeah.
Absolutely, yeah. Well, and that's the thing because you were talking a moment ago about diagnosing the problem, right? Because if you walk into a doctor's office and you're like, Hey, I have elbow pain, and he just like, you know, slides you a script and says, Okay, cool. I go take care of it. You're not going back to that doctor, right.
Unless it's a really good script.
Here's some narcotics, keeping em coming. And you're like, I'll be back next week. Thank you.
My knee actually hurts as well.
Yeah. Right. Because, you know, in those moments when you have pain, like, like you want someone to, like listen to you, right? The and to diagnose the problem, right and I've seen you do this right, you know. You worked on on my back and everything else and it's how long has this been going on? You know, like, what have you done to try to fix it? There's there's a level of questioning that allows me to feel that you have got really good perception of like, what's going on as opposed to let me just fix your, hey, you know what, shut up, I know exactly what you need. I got it right here in my pocket. tablet. I just give this to you.
Yeah. And I blow that guy off.
Yeah, I do as well.
You know, for me, it's the way you build trust, since we're talking about trust. For me, it's sitting in front of the customer and I hear, hey, this is our biggest problem. My entire AC system doesn't work. And I look at it. And like I said, it's their biggest problem here now and it is painful for them, right? The only way I can help build trust, though or the way I do It has to say, Look, man, this, this is pretty bad situation for you, you got a, you know, let's say a hotel full of people without AC today, this this sucks. But if it makes you feel any better, a lot of people have had this problem. And we've helped a lot of people through this problem. It's similar to one we did last week, right? Things like that. So that just kind of helps like, Okay, good. You kind of somebody else has had this problem. It's been dealt with. It's been fixed. They're still alive. They're still in business, right? Kind of, yeah, that's the trust for me.
It kind of shows them like, because when you're in the middle of that, right, and you have pain, and it's like, you know, current, you think you're the only guy or the only person who's ever had this, right. And so whenever you can show up and, you know, tell these stories about the other people that you've helped and their concerns and everything else, it It builds some rapport without you actually having to brag, right? Because when you brag about like, how great you fixed the other guy's problem, right? It becomes
Ooh, you going out on a limb?
Yeah, absolutely, but yeah, cuz at the same time, you might get some ugly feelings. If that guy's been competing against that other business time. So when I, when I'm building that trust with those people, it's really important to know that you're going to take care of them. You're on their team, you're here to solve a problem. And you know, it'd be like walking into a lawyer. And you're the first DUI he's ever seen. Right? It's your biggest problem. You walk in, you're like, I have a DUI,
And he's like, yes, you drink. This is gonna be a repeat. I'm gonna get some repeat business out of this.
If he said in front of you, it was like, Oh my gosh, that sounds terrible. What do we do? Wrong referral.
Wrong referral.
You know, he sits in front of me says, hey, look, I deal with these cases weekly. This is the process.
You provide direction.
But wait a second, you bring up a point. I've had more people just not understand that attorneys, you know, there's a bigger story there right. What judge are we going to be in front of, how well, if I'd been drinking with that guy. I mean, there's the local posse that, you know, can run pretty heavy and help you out in in the legal sense. So and it depends. And I guess I go at it with sometimes my attorney looks at me goes, I don't have a clue. But it doesn't mean he's not going to work on the problem. He just doesn't want to give an answer till he knows we've got this nailed down because he doesn't know how far off the beaten path I've gotten. Right.
I'll check into that. I'll let me get back to you.
So so if you if you run into Skepticism on on certain fronts, you know, it's it. Sometimes it's skeptical back. And I think as a salesperson, you should be more skeptical of your prospect that they're actually going to pan out, then they should be of you. And somehow you have to convey that. And that's almost like grabbing that no with their skepticism. Absolutely understand, this probably isn't going to work. I'm not even sure you're a guy I need to be talking to. Yeah, I mean, you can put it back on them in a certain sense.
I mean, we were in a project interview just a couple days ago, me and our, you know, construction team and sales team, quite a big crew of us in a room with with the customer. And the guy was, he said, Well, you're you guys are one of three that we're interviewing and, you know, appreciate you guys coming by. We've got three different answers on how to solve this problem. I'm like, well, that's interesting. Which one do you like the best, you know? And the guy was like, Well, you know, two of you had some pretty good ideas. I'd like to we'd like to talk more about those. So okay, so we go through how we were going to do it again, I said, is that along the lines what you guys were thinking on how to do this job and he says, You know, I think that is the best solution. So in a few minutes, you kind of start singling yourself out, building the the team that when we do this, this is how we're going to do it. Do you guys agree? Oh, yes, exactly how we would do it. So you just kind of you building that team that trust that togetherness.
Okay, but where's the fine line between that and just free free consulting?
Well, I think if you, there's a certain stage,you're not doing that on day one. You're not doing that on bid day. Yeah, this is second round interviews, we're talking $6, $7 million jobs. You go through this process, right? So and and you know, what's funny is, my boss actually asked me that just the other day is like, well, how much information are we giving them? What's stopping them from taking that and using a cheaper customer? And I said, Hey, they can absolutely do that. But if they're like that, I don't want to do business with them anyway. So if they're willing to do that in the interview process, what are they going to do when they start, time to pay checks and pay us? You know, are they gonna...
And Nan and I run into that in our arena, because we have some direct interface with doctors offices, and some of these guys. They're great physicians, but they're poor businessmen. And they think, you know, I'm a doctor, I can do everything, right. And we've had to face some of that where we don't give them all the nuggets. We have to hold back or, or we're just, we're free consultants at that point. And at that point, then I get skeptical them and begin to put it back on them and Nan's gotten good at that as well.
I mean, literally, there's a, you know, there's a there's a hill that you cross or a speed bump that you go over. And after that is, it's time to do this work or not, right? So, yeah, if you've taken all this from me, and you're going to go use a competitor that didn't, so for, in my example, in my business would be, you're going to use somebody cheaper that didn't have all these answers. So you called me to the table to get all my answers to give to him to do the job. Yeah, you're going to fail, and you should know you're going to fail. Something's going to go awry during that project. And I'm going to, I'm going to laugh because I didn't do it. I'm going to be happy because I wasn't a part of that. And I'm gonna go do business with somebody else. So, you know, I'm not too worried about it.
So backing up a little bit to the idea of, you know, know, knowing yourself and passing whenever you don't, I was working with this client, and I got in there on a referral. Right. And so I am, there's the decision maker, and then the guy under him and the guy under him. is where the referral came from. And he was asking me this question about, about stuff that I have opinions on, but don't really work on as part of like, what I'm doing for them. And and I said, Hey, you know, you should probably go talk to, you know, this person to this person about it, you know, people who were, who were who they were already working with, you know, and the guy my referral, he was like, You don't have any input on this? And I said, Well, I have opinions. But, you know, if you're working with these other people, they've probably gone through this is better for them. And the boss turns to the other guy, and he goes, I like the fact that he doesn't try to, you know, talk about stuff that was that isn't part of his wheelhouse. Sure. And I was like, fist pumping. You know, it was nice for me, because I know, you know, I'm the guy who gets a ton of, you know, self value out of having the answer right and left to my own devices. I would go spend hours and hours and hours trying to figure out the right answer for them, but it's not really part of what I do. They're just kind of a one off question and not, you know, it was it was just far enough outside that I was like, I shouldn't be dabbling in this kind of thing. So which goes to the thing that you know, you don't have to know everything. You know, you don't have to be the one stop person for, you know, things.
Yeah, be genuine, I mean don't.
And but if you're in any enterprise you need to know the people who are also in that enterprise or that line of sales. Let's just boil it down. If you're in car sales, you should probably know other car salesman, you should build social networks. If you're door to door not sure how you would do it, but probably a good idea to know who else is knocking on doors in the area. If you you know, if you're in the medical device business in the Dallas Fort Worth metroplex, Nan and I probably know just about everybody in that business after a decade. So it's an you know, if you're selling with integrity, you're gonna find other people who sell with integrity as well. Sure, and you may drink with them. You may you know, be at a social function and rub shoulders. It behooves you to honestly know when somebody else is a better fit for a particular project. You, you, giving that one up will mean that will reward you on both sides of that equation. So if you're, if you're in sales and you're living in a small world, you're going to get a small reward. If you're living in sales, and you're living in a big world in your arena, then you are a known individual, at least beyond you know, your kids and the office that you work out of. And when you get to that stature, that can continue to grow over a whole lifetime. And if that's your goal, you're going to you're going to reduce skepticism, you're going to find that you're now an influencer in your arena. Yeah. And if you're not going at it like that, good luck. Yeah.
Yeah, you're gonna struggle, right and you're gonna have tons of churn. Right, which is not fun for anybody.
When you went to Houston, sorry to interrupt. How many phone calls did you get? Oh, when you landed there.
Within a month, right.
Well,tell a little bit about that.
I mean, as far as other jobs I mean, as soon as I was telling doc yesterday that as soon as I landed within a month of me being in that market in a new position, new position, new market, new company, all the competitors within that arena just boom, I was getting LinkedIn messages and phone calls and emails and hey, you know, I got a better offer for you, you need to be over here on this team. I don't even know, right? Don't know anything about them. They've truly don't know me, they just see a title, an age, they, you know, they've met me at a social function for five minutes. Hey, that guy's fun, we need him on our team.
I mean, that is so true. All the time. I get calls all the time from people going, what are you doing? Are you still doing this? And are you interested in this?
And what's your answer?
Answer's maybe.
We can talk later, on my working hours. But no, it happens all the time. And it happens to everybody all the time. So I'm driving in. I was already I was telling the guys I was driving in this morning and turn on my radio station I always listen to, and two of my doctors are going off on you know, they're on. They're doing, I guess, I don't know, just a radio show, I guess. And they're talking all about their business and putting some other guys under the bus. But I thought man having this information is so fantastic to go in to see them and say so you know, just getting to know people don't burn again, don't burn bridges. Be mindful and respectful of people. Dr. Daniel, you're about to talk and I just kept talking.
No, no, I'm like, get the I'm still wondering about those other offers.
You know that happens to you all the time, it happens to everybody.
I like what you were saying earlier, though, about just kind of being, you know, if you don't have anything to say, be quiet. And I think that to me, builds a lot of trust and a lot of conversations, and I see it happen. In construction, we do job walks, for the bid process. You go see the site with the customer and he may have, you're literally walking with your competitors. So you know who's there instantly, you know the three other people you're bidding with and you're literally walking through the job.
So you're in the same group?
You're in the same group of 10 people walking through, you know, let's say school remodel and you're literally walking through there and I watch it every time some some guy sales guy from each team will try to pull their five minutes.
That's the guy you step on the guy shoestring. He's gotta bend down and then you can catch a little progression, and you're like, hey, why's he back there?
But, but I mean, I listen to them guys. Sometimes it works right? Sometimes it builds some really good rapport. Oh, you grew up in Kansas. I grew up in Kansas and you know, Kansas Yeah. And you just kind of watch that thing happen and you think okay, but that's this guy's not gonna buy shouldn't buy a million dollar job because they grew up in different cities in Kansas right? So
But, you say that, hold on real quick, right? Because like the college thing is such a huge...
No, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that you didn't lose the job if that happens. That's what that's what I'm saying. Don't try to one up and go over there. Oh, my grew up in Kansas, you know, like, just let the let it happen. They're trying to build rapport too, look if they're at this stage.
I have to tell this story. Yesterday I was at my brother's office and he's in construction as well. And he has this big whiteboard on one of the walls in his office. And he has 10 names. And I was like, what's that about? And he goes, he goes, those are my top 10 vendors. And he said, when I know one of the vendors are coming to my office, he said, I write numbers by him. It's never in order. And they'll come in and go, you know, they'll see it. And you know that every time they say it, and he said, he never puts, I shouldn't tell a secret. But he said he never puts a 10 at the guy that's coming in. It's usually a seven. And the guys like why am I seven? And he's like, cuz you're not a one or two or three. No, no, that's good man. And he said, it's just so competitive. But he said it's a joke. So you know, to his, his number one guy, he's never gonna say he's the number one, I mean, it's just not gonna happen.
I mean it's kind of funny because I have a similar process where I have, I do it with business cards. So I have, behind me on my desk is a huge pile, like it's a knocked over pile of business cards. And then I have neatly stacked business cards and they don't mean anything right. I just do it for looks. And literally when somebody comes in, hands me a new business card. I look at it and I just throw it in the pile right in front of them. But you can see their eyes shift back and forth like why am I not in the nice stack?
He didn't politely put me on top of this or even leave me on the desk. I'd even take that, just don't throw it anywhere.
But it's just it's a you know, it's a it's a funny game. It doesn't mean anything, but.
So, so let's flip the coin a little bit, right because, you know, we we've been kind of talking about how we want to be sold. But on the other hand, you know, as salespeople we need a little bit of skepticism, right? Because, you know, if if the person is like, Hey, man, this looks really good. I can't wait to work with you. You know, and you go back to the boss, and you're like, Hey, I got one like this. This is gonna close.
Yeah, you can't do that.
So but you can have too much right. I've blown deals out of the water because I've been too skeptical. Yeah. And pushing too hard to get my needs met.
I believe about half of what they say usually. You know, there you hear everything they say and you take out some, you know if you're, if you're quiet and you let people talk, they'll truly, eventually because dead air in a room somebody will fill it. It just happens. And if it's not you, it really is. And I really believe that I mean, sometimes you just sit there and quiet, and if there's nothing else to state, somebody will say something right? And that's usually when you get your best information because they don't need to say it. And they didn't want to say it but now they feel that they have to say and they do it anyway. So
And you're compensating for your insecurity in that moment.
Yeah, and that another key point is...
I mean, detectives do it all the time.
And eye contact during that quiet time, right? Just look just look at them. And and figure out who's gonna...
Look at them, look at the drawings on the table, look at the brochures and just say, okay, you know, and somebody will say something. I mean, it's an interrogation tool that people have been using for a long time. You just, if you stay silent long enough staring at somebody mentioned, posture and body language, they're going to talk. Yeah. So well, but they're the one or two percenters right as
an S, I would in the very beginning, and I'm probably done it recently. But I'll get a little like, anxious like I cannot. And I'll say something. And then I'm like, crap, I shouldn't have said that.
And that's we're doing what Clint did is easy for john and Clint or easier than it is for you. And so we have to be self aware of our propensity to go ahead and fill that void and not do it as much as I want to, as much as I will. I'm just the nice guy and he just says, say something. So you take that comfort level back down or the edge off of it. Don't. Sit there and go, what. They're not, you know, can't hurt me.
And I get so excited. Oh yeah, forget to slow down and everybody
I mean I'm, I use very elementary here but I use this, what?
Must be mean to the I then, man. I must suck.
No, not at all but like...
He's an I.
We all have our stuff you know that they bring to the table right so for me...
No, I mean I gotta be self aware not to just say something. You know, what I do say it's got to be correct tonality and not just like what do you mean that's what you're doing.
Here's what I want to say, let's take this down about 70 points, yeah, and now it's fit for the masses.
I mean what the questions that I usually ask are the statements I usually say I have been working on for a long time in my head before I say them because I know how I come across a lot of times. So so you know just just even like that statement is, oh really that's what you're doing? When when it was a it was a real thing that I should have said was like, oh man, that's that's interesting. That's how you're doing that? Yeah, it's a whole lot different. Right? So you work on that before that comes out of my mouth.
Oh, well, you know if you're saying it for the first time in front of your prospect, like, rrrrr.
You know that truck ride over there, you should be running this through your head.
Because for me when I get to too trusting is when like the facts make sense. Yeah. Because that
Cuz you justify them to yourself?
Oh yeah. Like, there's no, there's no, there's no way that this guy is going to tell me no, because of like this and this and this and then I'll get a no and I'm like, just pissed off about it. Right. And so now, I'm like, to skeptical right? I took this sales assessment for skills, right, not personality subject, just like sales skills. And I came back as like not a good fit because I'm just too skeptical of people like it was off the charts. It was like John is...
What was it, I mean, I'm kind of curious about the test. Do you remember remember the name?
I do. Do you want to talk about it on here?
Why not? If it was a good test. Yeah, I mean, it was, again that's that whole, you know...
It was pretty good. So it was called Outmatch. Outmatch. And, you know, I took it because I was thinking about, you know, maybe it's something that we should be offering, right? Because there is the DISC component to this. And this is super important, obviously, or else we wouldn't be here talking about it. But over and above that you have skills, right? how, you know, how much urgency do you have? How much you know, how good are you at following a process and these other things are not, you know, black and white on DISC because I can build rapport as a C, right. I can have conversations, I can go insert myself into conversations and things like that. So it's meant to measure those kinds of like soft skills that happen in sales roles. It was pretty awesome. But my skepticism was just off the charts because at this point, I've been kicked in the teeth and, you know, I, I just don't trust people.
Okay, so that brings up a point. So is skepticism from getting your teeth kicked in too many times, or is it inherent into, its a natural to say, I think it's natural
I was gonna say, it's different. I guarantee.
It's natural for me too. I'm naturally hateful and skeptical right off the bat.
That's a good word. That's a word of the day. Hateful.
I mean, I'm serious. I'm, you know, I usually go into meeting somebody I'm like, All right, let's let me see this guy do this a couple of times to see the consistency. And the consistency is the truth. When I take notes, you know, like, Nan's notepad here, every meeting that I go into looks like that at the end, the way I pull the truth out of it, and this is the way I do it. I put a star every time somebody repeats something next to a bullet point, right. And I sometimes you end up with seven stars next to line. But when I review my notes, those things that have stars by them are usually the truth, because it's been repeated, important. And it's important and it's, you know, it's the it's your talking points now, right. Those are the things that you come back with. All that stuff in between is just smoke to fill the air.
Yeah, if you can't retain, you better take notes because there are important things always said by your...
I like the idea of always taking notes. I don't, I mean, I do take a lot of notes or I do a lot of decompressing after a sales call, but I don't do it during the sales call. And I probably should. Yeah. I mean, I think it adds credibility to the fact that... they feel like they feel like such
They feel like, they feel uke such a band. Yeah, exactly. Right. Hey, you know, I'm gonna take some notes. Is that okay? And then I can send you an email later with, you know, the bulletpoints. Yes. Yeah, people love that! My problem is so important that this guy wants to take notes and that way he remembers it. Yeah. Right. I mean, everybody loves that.
Can I ask you guys, I'm gonna ask you guys a question. I'd love to get some feedback from everybody on this. But when you guys sit down and like at the doctor's office, you're meeting I'm gonna say two doctors or a doctor. Do you guys sit across the table from everybody? Do you always put your team across the table? Do you guys ever thought about that?
I have, and we don't. Meaning, okay, well, where are you going with this?
Well, I mean, sometimes it's just one on one, right? And that's, of course you're gonna be across. And sometimes it's, you know, when it's two on two or like the other day it was, it was like five on five or four and for whatever it was, we we spread out. So it's like their guy, my guy, they're alternating. Well, and the reason I, the reason I like to get on the other side of the table is when I feel like we're all equals, right, equal, you know, this partnership, and also get to see their notes. Like that's really important for me. The conference table, you can't see what they're writing. Look at you. Yeah, just a little sneak. That's been a genius, but better. The chair because of a buyer is taking notes on me, because that happens. As you know, it happens a lot probably, you know, if they've called you to the table,
Particularly in your industry.
Especially mine, because a lot of moving parts. Absolutely. So they're taking notes and if it's important enough for them to take a note on me as the, you know, the provider. It's probably really important, right? So You don't know. I'm just saying you don't have to sit. It's a it's a little trick. You don't have to sit across the table unless I tell you, you know, and I always ask, can I sit anywhere. Oh, yeah, sit anywhere. Okay, let's sit next to you then. But I do. Sometimes I sit at the table in their own conference room. I mean, it's just interesting.
Whoa, that's a ballsy move.
He said sit anywhere. But, you know, it's a trust thing. Little ticks.
And, and you can get a feel for how you need to play that as you walk in the room.
I don't like to meet on their turf. Like, like I was trying to do like, like a coffee shop or like some kind of neutral thing, right? Especially when I'm networking. Like, I don't want to come to your office and we're just gonna like, sit down and chat about like, you know what you do and all that stuff because I, I don't know why. It is just the thing that bothers me.
I'm the opposite. I love coming to your grounds. I love seeing your office. I love seeing how you operate.
You gather a ton of information, what's on the wall? What's he focus on, if he's got a bunch of diplomas up, he's big into where he came from, particularly my arena. You walk down and you see this is, vacations and he's real proud of the places he's been. All of that factors into how I'm going to deal with this individual or what's fair where he places his value. And the more information I can get then the more bonding and rapport we can quickly move through.
Yeah, it's vital for me because surgeons are so, you know, its just like, I just love whenever you get in there, you can see all the you know, their personal stuff. One of my surgeons, for instance, has a couple nativities that are off the chain amazing I love and nativities and, I mean, beautiful and I would have never
Like Christ
All year round?
They're amazing. They're not the typical he got him in a special
Like, are they live action?
Hey John, most Christians believe all year not just on Easter and Christmas.
Hey, Hey, can I get a high five? So anyway,
I just think it's a little weird to have it out all the time, but you know, okay, continue Nannette, I'm sorry.
But I won't. Okay. So anyway, I think it's really excellent to get in and I would have never known that about him. You know, there's so many things you get to find out about people I saw I agree, but maybe that's because you are a C, so you like a little more? Well, so I think it matters.
I've been since since I said that I've been thinking a little bit more about it. If it's a client, I don't have a problem going to their office. But if someone is just like, hey, like, Let's sit down and get to know each other, you know, we we met at this event, okay, I'm not coming to your office for that.
I don't know why. I mean, I think you learn you just learn so much at their own their own place. I mean, I get what you're saying, right? You kind of get them out of there. They open up a little bit more. Absolutely. I get that it's not such a business setting if you're trying to build some good bonding rapport.
And then I can buy the coffee. Sure. Right. Which is like a huge thing for me because then you know, there's like a reciprocity there, right? Hey, I bought you the coffee. You're gonna want to, you know, help me out a little bit.
Well, everybody, coffee, everybody's clientele is a little different. I'm usually in a very professional setting. So it's usually in a conference room.
Mr. Big Time!
I'm sorry, I meant my industry is a little more professional set. That's what I meant
Clint, you have the next 15 minutes.
I'm only gonna need seven, man. But yeah, you know, for example, the other day, we went over to this guy's office and they invited us over. And we were there a little early. And he said, Yeah, just hang out the conference room, we'll be there in a minute. We're getting some drawings together. But they had tons of information about this project that we're trying to sell all over the conference room. But you know, and I didn't, yeah, I mean, but, but I walked over in here. And the thing is, is that one crucial piece of information, I kind of knew everything else that was out there. We talked about it before, but there was a little bitty stack of business cards from everybody else that had interviewed on that. And I didn't know who they were. Usually we have a pretty good idea. Just took my finger and kind of flicked it and
I say something, please, this is very important at this moment. There's always a camera. There's always a mic.
I mean, I didn't do anything illegal or wrong.
If I go into the doctor's office, and I get there, I will I see other brochures from other people who are bringing, and
He doesn't really either, I don't think.
I don't go I don't go messing with their stuff, but I look. Yeah. And
It's like,
Moving on please. Thank you.
I don't see why that's so sensitive. I don't know why it's a sensitive topic.
I don't think you should do that.
I don't know. I wouldn't do that.
I look for a window to crawl in later at night.
And like, I mean, I'll even make a joke, right? Oh, you guys were using John's plumbing on this one. They kind of chuckle, Well, no, we interviewed them too. Okay, cool.
Man, my walls are always just like so because because Nan was talking about you know, like the camera and the mic, you know, and like, that's how I'm thinking about because I remember once I was I was interviewing for this role. This is, I don't know, probably three or four years ago, maybe longer than that. And so they're like, hey, just go in here and have a seat at the conference table. And I walk in there and I'm just like, Oh, yeah, okay, I see the mind games here. You know, you're trying to, you're trying to like game me figuring out which seat I'm gonna sit at. Like that's how much... It is a blackhole of skepticism.
You know why, because you think that way? Oh, yeah. So you think everybody else does? But of course, you're a small percentage.
Have you heard of the Marshmallow Study? Come on, guys. The children. Children, you put them in a room, and they actually did this. And there's marshmallows and they were like, the adults were like, do not eat these marshmallows until I get back. Well, I mean, the minute they're in there's cameras, you know, and the kids are like, aaahhh. So cute.
So, yeah. Okay. It's time for the Throwdown, I would say. So Clint, as a D talking about trust and skepticism, and you know, vetting that stuff out. Go ahead.
Yeah, I mean, I, like I said earlier, I, I really look for the repeat things that you talked about and and that's the way I shake the truth out. One, asking some tough questions on the spot and not being afraid to ask those usually get some pretty real answers because it catches them off guard a little bit. You know, they haven't had time they didn't prepare for you to ask that question maybe. So, being okay in your own, you know, skin to be able to ask a tough question and really don't ask it to ask. Ask it and look for the answer. Yeah, all in all sorts. Right.
Sorry to hop on there. But yeah, that that's a nugget.
Yeah. And you know, like I said earlier, the note taking thing you know, once you repeat it or you know, mentally take it down. Once you've repeated that three or four times, that's kind of the hot topics is probably the truth that they talk about, you know. You know, when somebody says we really love Safety here safety is paramount safety is key Safety Safety Safety. I'm writing I'm putting the stars next to the word safety a couple of times that way when I interview again for this job or
You walk in with a safety vest and a hard hat on.
That's every Saturday night for Clint.
Village people.
But yeah but yeah just the trust side of it is you gotta you kind of gotta let the smoke clear, pick out which you know what things have been talked about a lot and what really meant, what what language they reacted to it you know? So you know on the skeptical side is really for me is just I go in a little heavy and I'm a little skeptical of everybody right off the bat which I think kind of helps me out a little bit getting the truth right. I don't believe everything they say and I don't chase everything that they say and so being a little skeptical is not bad.
I'd agree with that. Okay. Al? for I's?
I Give everybody 100 points when they start out, I don't know, any side of this equation, I assume you're going to be the person that you present as being. But I'm skeptical of facts and figures, and the design. And it can be because you don't know any better. But if you own anything that doesn't match up, then you keep the trust. If you start trying to avoid the hard questions, or the problem areas, just for the gravy, then you start losing your value in my eyes real quickly. And then once you if you ever tell a lie, if you ever blatantly tried to do something that's off the reservation, you're dead. Never ever again. Because there are other people. I don't live in a one horse town. We don't need to do business. Good luck to you, get the f out. Let's go.
Oh wow, okay. Nannette, the polar opposite of Al, I'm sure, go ahead.
So, I just think it's really important to do onto others. So I'm ready responsible for my actions completely, ever, like, I am going to reap that, whatever my actions are, but what how other people act towards me is pretty much on them, unless I've done them wrong. So I try never to be wrong. I don't say I don't. And I have and trust me, I'm not a saint. But I think it's really, actions are very important, on my part.
I have a lot of skepticism, as we've talked about. And I think that most C's do, right, because, you know, facts are more consistent than people are. Right? So I also kind of when I'm selling kind of figure, that assumptions don't help me and I love to make assumptions because once again, I want to be the smartest guy in the room. So what I default to is digging in deeper, right, asking the question and make them clarify the things that way becomes the same that we actually have out there in the air between us, right? You know, I really like this Okay, why? right and then when they have to verbalize it To me, I'm like, Okay, cool. Does this line up with what other people have talked about? So, I think by default, I push more than I think anybody else here at the table does. And I don't think it's a bad thing. You just have to be aware of it. Because, you know, I can't push on Al the same way that I could like, Clint, you know, you know, there's different levels there.
Well that hurts.
One's weaker, and one's stronger, guess who's stronger.
So, if you're if you're a C and you're out there selling and stuff in, in, you know, in your
I quit.
and you're struggling with the trust thing, you know, and you know, you're you know, you've been lied to a couple of times and you've got this jadedness and this and stuff like this. That's not helping you either.
Okay, but get over it. Everybody's been lied to. Don't be Don't be Al and be be Clint. Obviously.
Good point.
It just everybody was like, Clint,
Oh man, we'd be, half would be dead, and the other
The world would be on Fire!
There'd be 40 really strong people on the planet.
Here's how this would happen, half would kill half, and half would kill have, it would come down to two, then one right. Good luck with that.
And only, and there was only two because they haven't met yet.
Yeah, well, they're looking for each other.
Clint is a Highlander
Clint is married to an S and thank God.
Balance, baby, balance.
She's becoming a D.
So if you know someone who is also in sales and struggling with, you know, these kinds of things, trust and skepticism. Share this with them. If you're listening, leave us a review. That's how we get better. We read every one of them. And if you haven't taken one of these assessments and you want to learn a little bit more about yourself and really kind of figure out who you are because I was dead wrong before I took my assessment, reach out to us, assessment@salesthrowdown.com and we'll get you hooked up. Alright.
It makes life easier. It really does.
Yeah, improvement begins with self. So thanks a lot, everybody. Have a good day.