This episode was originally released in October of last year. Its relevance is timeless, but the message might be even more important now. Your prospects' needs should always outweigh your own. But now, when priorities have changed, when businesses have had to shift and rethink how they will survive, finding what pains your prospects have should be priority #1. When you find out what pains they have, how you can help, and IF you can help, you'll build more trust than any other salesperson they'll talk to. Even if you're not the right fit right now. Traditionally, salespeople are taught and/or default to start sales conversations with the features and benefits of their product. What makes them bigger, better, more important than anybody else. But how do they know that the prospect cares about those features and benefits without knowing what pains your prospects need solutions for? If you change the dynamic from giving too much (often unnecessary) information to asking more questions, you'll have an easier time both qualifying a potential client and showing them how you can help. As always, knowing DISC, both yours and your client's, helps improve that conversation even more. Have you had a DISC assessment yet? Email us at assessment@salesthrowdown.com to get more info. ✅ Sign up for our emails: https://www.salesthrowdown.com/ ✅ Connect with us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Salesthrowdown ✅ Check us out on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/salesthrowdown/ ✅ And keep up with us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SalesThrowdown
Welcome to the show everybody.
Let's get in the swing of it.
We've had some interesting conversations before we turn the mics on. But we're here today to talk about why people buy. And where a lot of people get things wrong, and where they get kind of off track. Right. And it used to be there was a huge gap between people who were selling one way versus people selling the other way. But, you know, it seems like now more and more people are talking about the kind of things that we have all learned and put into practice and stuff like that. And it kind of falls into two camps. In my version of this, right, there's features and benefits. And then there is trying to uncover pain, their pain points or concerns or anything else like this, right? You know, and you call it value. So most people right, and the hard part about features and benefits, right, is you're making a substantial assumption that they see value in the thing that you are pitching and talking about. In the example that I talked about, is you know, you buy the car from the car lot. A year later, they call you back and say, Hey, I got this year's model, you can have the same payment, but it's got leather. When do you want to come in? Features. You're assuming I see a ton of value in leather. Right? And I live in Texas. I don't, I don't want leather. So let's talk about...
Or you're assuming I have a pain over my previous purchase?
Oh, yeah.
Well, assume is a great word, those features and benefits.
Yeah, you didn't ask me if I was having a problem with the last sale, the last $70,000 I just spent with you, right. I mean, if you're talking about big ticket item, Go fuck yourself. I just spent 70 last year, what do you want, another 75 this year? So I have an issue with that.
I think what you're, you know, alluding to here is that people sell all these things that we've been trained to sell, right. That, that I have the greatest product, and I do this the best. And they use those big buzzwords of always and only and best. And, and that, that is features and benefits to me. But the problem is, is that not everybody needs that.
Or you bought before you'll buy again. Yeah, absolutely. Just on auto like re-subscription. Right?
So I would say that most sales people out there today, I see them every day. I work with some of them. They pitch that right? We are the best, we're the only ones that you should use. And maybe that's not what the customer wants. Right? How do you uncover that? What the customer actually wants?
Yeah. Right. Because the, the the trick, in my opinion, is you got to have the conversation so that way you can build enough trust and rapport so that way they will they feel comfortable actually sharing what is important to them and what they're missing and where the gaps are in their business, if you're in a b2b sale and things like that.
Key word, trust, and we have to build the trust.
It's so important.
Or sharing, sharing is caring.
Are you a bear, you know, with the little caring on your tummy?
You know, Al, a couple episodes ago, brought up a really good point of when he went to buy a truck, right? He went to buy a truck, a $70,000. Write a check, write a check, hey, this is it. I'm done. I've made my decision before I walk on the lot. And he got turned away by very traditional sales pitch of, "I have to get through this monologue, because that's what I'm been trained to do." And the fact is, is that you didn't need that, you just needed to buy a truck. And had one simple question of why are you here today? Or what are you looking to do to get out of this situation? You'd have wrote a check, but you didn't, right.
And he didn't because he didn't get respect from the salesperson. You have to respect your client. Your...
I think, I think that's part of it.
He was addressing his agenda versus mine.
You're exactly right.
That's all that was happening.
Absolutely.
That's about getting his needs met.
Yeah. And I wasn't buying that.
And that's kind of the opposite of the way that we all sell.
Literally not buying that.
Around being more of the consultant, like help me understand. Show me what's going on in your world, in your business, and let me see if I can help.
Because if the guy had said, is that all the money you have that you can put towards this project? Yeah. I just said initially, initially, I'd have said yes. And he just said, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to say no. Right. He wouldn't have pulled the we'll rebate, and if you do this, if you do that, and if you jumped through 10 damn hoops. If he just said, I'm sorry, I can't do that deal. What should we do now? Absolutely. How fucking honest would that have been. I said, So you mean, I need more money?
Yeah, I think the, no matter what industry you're in, or what sales you're in, one of the first questions that you're going to get asked by a customer is 'what's it cost?' Absolutely. So there's a lot of answers to that question. That's a very clouded, you know, question to answer. One thing you can, you know, I could do that. I could say, oh, it costs $2,000 an hour, or whatever to do the service. But I don't know that because I don't know what his service is, that he needs. I don't know what solution I'm trying to solve. I'm guessing, based on somebody said, What's it take for you guys to come over here and do this project? If I give an answer, that's features and benefits. If I dig and figure out what it is he's actually trying to do, and I provide a solution that has cost at the end of it? That's digging on pain, and providing the solution and value.
It's also qualifying them to make sure that their expectations line up with your, with your values and how you guys deliver.
I think that's a whole, yeah, sure.
Being a detective. Figuring out...
Okay. So think about it this way, building a house, buying a car that has, is on the expensive end with a lot of features and benefits. What do you really need, once you know my pain, or you understand what my, my buying instincts are? What do I need to make me feel happy as a buyer? Right? That I'm satisfied with this purchase? I'm not afraid to spend the money. And when you're talking about in business, most businesses aren't afraid to spend money, or you shouldn't be calling on them. Right? If you're addressing an issue. So when you start looking at why should they even be, if they go to cost, then I think your natural reaction should be? Well, I haven't clearly understood how I can fulfill your need.
No, I agree. One of the questions that I that I used to say a lot in the website world is, you know, whenever we talked about budget, and say, "Hey, just real quick. You know, what I found is that some people want the wish list, and they're okay kind of expanding the budget if we can meet everything on the wish list. And then some people, this is all they can afford to spend, and we need to make it fit. Curious, where do you see yourself between those two things?" Right? And then right, then I'm so far past the conversation around, well, we'll talk about costs later, right, which is dismissive and breaks the trust that you've worked so damn hard to build up to that point in the conversation. True. So don't be dismissive, right? Because it's their concerns, their concerns are valid, just like our concerns as salespeople are valid.
And I go back to, don't run your agenda, address their agenda?
Well, if they're bringing that up constantly, cost cost cost. What's it cost, cost cost? That's a pain, guys. That's something that you need to focus towards, to dig it. Right. So if they talked about quality, quality quality, then you would, you would dig into quality.
Because you know, when you say costs, costs, costs, I'm thinking limited budget, limited budget, limited budget,
I agree with that.
Where, when you say, what are my features? What can I get, then I'm thinking, all right, they want value for their dollar.
Right? It's the three legged stool, right? If you've been in sales, or in business for any length of time, right? Yeah, speed, quality, and price. Pick two. You can't have all three, or you're not going to get the lowest price with the best quality as fast as you can get it. You can have one of the, you can have two of the three, but you're not gonna have all three. So which one are you willing to budge on?
It's like being in a back alley in Bangkok.
Been there.
I knew, I knew I was gonna hit a nerve with you. Something was gonna spark some memory.
No idea what that means.
I think it was called Pattaya Beach, Thailand, not Bangkok.
So let's talk about the other side of things, right, is that you're working for a company and what, what happens, at least for me and some of the bigger companies that I've worked with. Because I've done some skipping around in the same industry, but for different competitors, right, or different companies inside the same thing, right? Like I worked for AT&T, and I worked for Sprint, and I also worked for T-Mobile. Right,
Man, you made the gammut.
Quite the resume.
The big three, I worked for the big three.
At 26 years old, without a college degree, and kind of like more or less kind fresh out of the army and making pretty solid bank as a retail sales rep. Oh man. Yeah. Why? Why would I leave?
And you knew shit.
Oh, man, I wish if you put me in that role now, I would murder, right. But here's the deal, I wouldn't go to that role, because it's a retail role. And I'm, and I'm limited to what I can deal with, with what comes in off the street. I'm not going to put myself in that position ever, ever again.
But you learned a lot from being in that position. Right?
Uh, I wouldn't, when I think about my, my, my entire... Hold on, here's the deal. I left AT&T specifically, right, because, because that was the last one in the wireless world for me, thinking that I knew a lot about sales, right. Thinking that I had it all figured out. Because they, they send you to some training and stuff like this. And it's, here's the deal. It's features and benefits and product training. It's not sales training, right. It's, 'oh, ask, ask open-ended, open-ended questions and try to corral them into like an easy close.'
Do they use the word corral?
Absolutely. The guy who trained me was like, he was gonna be a baseball umpire and he didn't make the cut. So then he's like, okay, I'll be a sales coach for AT&T.
If you hear the word corral, run.
Absolutely, because that's pressure.
Let me pause you for a second, because there's a lot of people out there that have that training, right? Oh, absolutely. So I think the takeaway from this, is that what we're talking about, you can come compound on exactly what you've been trained to do. Right? So you've been trained to do features and benefits, you've been trained to go out there and sell this product knowledge to people. Yeah, it is a start. What I'm going to say is that, John, you brought up a really good example quite a few episodes ago about working in that environment, and somebody buying a red cell phone case, right? They didn't give a shit what the product knowledge was, they just cared if it was red. And if you take your basic product knowledge and couple it with what we're saying here today, of ask for some pain points. What does it really matter to you? What are you really here for and if they say buy a red cell phone case? Go sell them a red cell phone?
Absolutely.
Did my daughter shop with you? Did my daughter...
It wasn't, it wasn't bedazzled now.
Exactly. Cuz, yeah, those are the ones I won't buy. But anyway.
So, so what, what happens, right, is that these features and benefits are actually usually fed to salespeople from the marketing team. Right? And they're like...
Not salesman, but go ahead.
...talk about this, talk about this, right? This is going to earn you business when most people have never had a sales conversation in their life, right? Because marketing is educating for later on. Brand recognition. Things like this, right? So the long game and working at and not paying your rent. Yeah, I'm, working at mobile, decide I was going to leave, play poker for a while, and then decided I'm just kind of done with poker, and then got back into cell phones. And the features and benefits were the same. They're exactly the same. So all these competitive advantages that I thought the T-Mobile like had corner on the market. They're, they were the exact same. So then all of a sudden, I'm feeling like a fraud for like all the people that have sold phones to and like Oh, man, best network, best coverage?
Because you were.
Oh, yeah, no, because, because once again, as a C, I hate being wrong, right. And I, my imposter syndrome runs really, really high pretty much all the time. So stepping into this new world, and like, now we've got the biggest network, and we have the best phones and all this stuff. I'm just like, man, I feel like such a liar, which was not comfortable for me, whatsoever.
So I was in pharmaceuticals. And y'all keep saying best. And it makes me laugh, because our slogan for our top product was the best, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to say what it was, but, and, which I would love Clint to talk about that. But we'll get to you in a minute, Clint, please. Hold your tongue for just a second. But it was, it's so funny because I was successful, not because I was selling the best thing. And not to pat myself on the back, but I am, here I go. But it was totally the process, the relationship, the trust that you build. And so that's a great example of the reason I bring this up is it's a great example of it wasn't the features and benefits. It was what I was bringing to the table, not the product.
You provided solutions.
Right. And I think that's just so vital. But, Clint, I think we've told this story before. I think I said it last time. But, Clint, if you say best to Clint, like that is the best soda, whatever he's like, I'll never drink that.
I'm only 9% of the population. So yes, I agree with what you're saying. We gotta, we gotta figure out how to communicate with the 91%, which is some people want to hear features and benefits, right? People are geared as buyers to pry features and benefits from you, free consulting. What do you do? How do you do it? They are trained to buy that way. We are trying to break that cycle and say that you have a legitimate problem. And I have a solution. And it's going to cost but how much are you willing to pay? And can I provide that solution at that cost?
So let me throw a curveball here. Your features and benefits arewhat you need to hold back.
No, I yeah....
You don't give those up? Don't be the whore that's just like selling it out there and throwing it out there. You say, hey, look, this is some sweet stuff. Let me know more about how this...
I would love to dive into the whore analogy. It really makes a lot of sense. I won't but man, there's a lot of...
It's great. And you see where I'm going with this right?
I think about it... So to use a different metaphor, I think about it like poker, right? So like, like poker is a game of information. Right? So the later in the hand you get to make your decision, the more information you have. And if you don't bet and you don't bet and you don't bet and you're all checking, I can have a pretty shitty hand, and since none of you guys have shown strength, I'm pretty confident that I can bet. Sales is the same thing. Right? So whereas if I turned my cards face up immediately upon getting them, you know, everybody knows, everybody knows what I've got, I can't bluff, right? And you're going to get your hamstring. Absolutely. So I treat... good analogy. I treat sales the same way. Right. Like what? You know, what's your pain? Can I solve it? You know? Are you qualified to work with me? Because if you're not...
You brought up a good point, that work with me. That's a very different mindset than what most people think. Right? So that's, that's nugget one is you get to work, get to work with me.
Quit begging guys, quit begging.
I'm a, I'm a valued partner to your situation.
Yeah. And if you don't trust what you sell, fuck, go sell something else.
Life's too short to be a vendor, be a partner.
The process works across the board. Right?
Yeah, I agree. Right? And, and flipping that script is so foreign to most people, right? If you set the expectation right around, hey, I might have to tell you no, at the end of this thing because I don't work with just everybody who comes, who comes crawling along. I've said that to people and they've been furious. What the hell do you mean I might not be a good fit? I'm like, I'm not saying you or you're not, I'm just saying that like that at the end of this, I might have to tell you no.
Don't come across the desk because then that's a whooping you don't want to take, because I'm a hard mofo. So I'm a salesman, but I'm also a guy who'll beat your ass. I'm telling you up front.
John in your, if you're a first year salesman out there, and you're hearing this for the first time, and you're thinking, I'm going to walk into aconference room or a job media and say, you might not get to work with me. That's really harsh, probably, to a lot of people's ears. Here's what I will say, what are you going to lose? And I'll say that, because let me tell you, if they don't qualify to be in your process, or they don't, I'm going to say rate, because I'm cocky as shit. If they don't, if they don't rate to be a part of your business, who gives a shit? Who cares? Right?
Okay, so there's a couple of really big factors that play into this thing, right? So, first of all, in my opinion, if you have never told a prospect, hey, we're not the best fit for you, and I, and I apologize, but like we can't, it's just not going to be good if we move forward. If you've never said that to a prospect, and you've taken on clients that you know are going to be pains in the ass and like not see value and how you work. If you, if you use a line like that, it's a gimmick and you should stop. Right? Because gimmicks don't really get you anywhere.
You sound like a goddamn salesman. Yeah,
Yeah, you need to be authentic, right? And so go, go have conversations with people. And if it doesn't match up, do not propose working together, right? You don't propose to like every person you go out on the first date with.
Be like your bank, you don't qualify.
Exactly.
Sorry, too many bad late payments or...
But that's not a bad analogy, because every bank loan process has a process, right?
Yeah, that's called underwriting.
You meet criteria, and I approve the loan. Right? Why don't we approve sales? Why don't we approve the process? That's the way it should work in a perfect world.
Because here's what's going to happen. You're going to wear your ass out on the that bad client, that you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You're working your ass off because you need the sale. Guys. Get your pipeline full of prospects, potential clients, other people you can talk to other than that guy. Yeah. That's not a good fit.
Yeah, a shallow pipeline 100% impacts your, your ability to like hold your ground, not discount....
Okay. So why do we have a shallow pipeline? Because you're lazy as fuck. Get off your ass, get hard, get busy.
I love it. I love it. Because I agree, because there's a lot more to what Doc just said then he's letting on. So I agree with that. So there's a process that you have to follow. And if you're lazy, you're not going to follow the process.
You have a work day, right?
I know. What I'm saying is that, look what Doc is saying if I can, if what I'm saying right now, is that if you have a process and you're lazy in one element of that process, you're going to, you're just not going to bring in good prospects, right, you're not going to bring in good jobs that make you successful.
You're gonna get to the end of the month or whatever your break point is, and you're going to be scrambling, you're trying to fill something.
Habit. Follow the habit.
So what happens in my world a lot is that if I'm not successful, I go fishing. Yeah, and I fish and fish and fish and fish until I finally catch a fish and maybe a shit fish that I can't even, might be a grass carp, you're hungry, I don't want to eat it. But I'm hungry, so I gotta take it right. And it sucks. However, if I spend all that effort, right, focusing on the one big bass, the yummy fish that I want to catch? Am I going to catch it? Probably, if I focus on my effort.
And it will feed you a lot longer and in in a better way.
Yeah. That kind of gets us off top, off topic a little bit. But I want to say that you, you absolutely have to have a process that people will fit into. Right? You qualify, John said it a million times, qualify qualify, qualify. If you don't qualify, that's okay. Don't, don't start off with features and benefits and tell them all these great things about my brand new car that I'm about to sell you. Look, they may not want that shit. They just may not want it. They may just need a car to get to work and it doesn't matter what it looks like.
So I'm going to back up a little bit because I think Al dropped a huge bomb, right and like, like a severe nugget. And this is more for the like the owner who's still selling right. And you, you're hearing the person, you can smell the crazy on him, you hear him and you're like, you know what, I'm just charging extra. It's never, it's never worth it. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass tax is not worth it. Cut bait. And if you're, if you're recreating your business to fit the one client, you're doing it wrong. Cut bait, go, go work with someone else. Real quick, because they're out there. Hold on. Yeah. Paul had, Paul had a question about this. Can we? Can we get to Paul's question because I can't.
Paul's our producer behind the scenes, by the way.
Paul, Paul's our producer, he's an entrepreneur. He's also a sales guy.
He's also a fantastic singer.
Yeah, I want to I want to hear his question.
Okay. Just tell them they propably won't be able to hear me as well, so you'll repeat it. So along what you said with the pipeline, those are pipeline. So what about you know, you've got all this people that you're talking to, prospects and like that. What if your prospect is literally like in the phone sales business? People didn't come? It wasn't a year long sale? Yeah. So what do you do when you have 10 minutes to sell? What do you, what do you, what do you attack on? What do you, what do you hit on? What do you do?
So he said, when you have 10 minutes to sell what do you do?
Good question, right?
For the people that aren't in these huge corporations selling for businesses like yourselves. You guys were selling because you want to? Yeah.
So if we're hearing you correctly, what you're asking is like, how do you manage that in a very short term trans, transactional selling cycle? Okay.
Get direct?
I, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, to go back to the, to the phone analogy, I don't have to qualify very much, right, versus in like a very customized consulting sale, I got to make sure that you want to work the way that I want to work because there's so much room for us to be at, at odds. Right. And I think in Clint's world and construction, that, that's also a huge thing. And I think that for Nanette and Al, like, the process is kind of more or less the same, right? Like, like, I don't think it flexes very much from like, company to company.
But let's go back to phone sales for a second because, to me, it's a really good analogy. A guy walks in the door, and instantly you puke all this stuff about the new iPhone fucking 12s right? You puke all this knowledge and the guy's like, okay, sounds good, but that's, how much does it cost? You lost the guy, right? But if you'd have asked a question like, Hey, man, you came in here today? What are you looking to do? Hey, man, I'm looking to buy a new phone. Okay, what are you looking for? Because I've got a lot of different phones here. Right? They all cost different things. Are you looking for a new camera that can take pictures of the moon at night? Because and you want them clear? Can I put that on my computer? Do you want them to just make phone calls? Just only phone calls? Absolutely. Yeah. Do you want them to be able to text, do all this? What do you need it to do? And he delivers his demands, let's say demands, right.
What are the top the things he wants?
Okay, well, look, man, I've got three phones. I can do that. Okay, three. This one is, you know, A, B and C option. A is obviously most expensive and it provides everything. B is this, C is that. The reason I say that is because what you've done is discovered exactly what he's looking to buy.
Of course.
Or you can say, what has brought you in today?
Can I stop everybody? That's Romper Room. They're coming to you. They're walking through the freakin door, right? Now let's go the flip side. When you got to walk through their door and engage them. That's in my opinion, a little harder equation.
Well, but aren't you? But at the same time, aren't you in the room? Because you're there for a reason?
No, you got, you got him. You made your way in.
You got invited, maybe you stopped by or whatever, but they need a service from you. That's why you're there.
Don't disagree. It's similar. But it's a different process. Because the guy...
It absolutely is a different process.
They come to you versus you're on the hook. Right?
Very much so. So now, but the point of it is, is that once you're in that room, no matter whether they came to you or you went to them, the process now is you have to uncover pain, you have to uncover what they're truly wanting to buy. Right. So that's the same process.
Because we, we kind of ran over Nan a minute ago.
I was just saying instead of giving him options, say now what brought you in? I think I've heard that a million times when I would go into those stores.
That's what we were taught to say.
Okay, but it's not wrong, guys.
No, I'm not saying no, no, no. Okay, hold on.
We're trying to identify what the best process is.
If loving you is wrong.
Let's backup, right? Because, because there there is a gap and a difference between like the things that we sell, right, and the b2b realm and something even like AT&T in the b2b realm. Right, because there were some people that are outside sales reps for AT&T.
Absolutely. I'm not, I wasn't poo-pooing any of that. I was just saying, the, the harder equation, in my opinion, is when you have to go to the customer versus the customer coming to you. If you've got great brand recognition, you need this too. I'm not saying you don't. I'm saying, they walk through the door. Now it's, you know, you have a qualified customer, somebody did, is at least looking.
You wanna talk about the hard thing, right? To use the, the phone sales analogy.
The phone sales analogy is the, we got paid. We got paid on, on data packages whenever I was there, right. So like, you can have the iPhone or the BlackBerry or you know, like, like...
Huge Blackberry, man, I want to cry when you say that word.
So, if you had an iPhone, right, and, you know, call it like the iPhone 4, right, because it's called, it's been around for a while. And then you wanted to come in, I was supposed to talk you out of the iPhone, because if you stayed with the iPhone, and that data plan that came with the iPhone versus the BlackBerry data plan, I didn't get paid on that. So then I am trying to absolutely steer you in the wrong direction, because my commission structure only rewards me if I make you change certain amounts of features, right? And then that's when you get into...
Thank goodness for Amazon.
That's when you start to deal with like people that are just there to like, make a buck because they're only incentivized, because companies will, will dangle spiffs and, and incentives and, and take it away. And that's not super helpful either.
A lot of companies do that. I mean, across the board. Sure, you know, with big sales force. So if you're stuck in like, I don't say stuck, if you are in the genre of mass sales, commodity type scenarios with add ons and built-ins, let's address that. I mean, so when you look at your prospect, I mean, somebody who comes to the door you go to, what's that look like?
I mean, you, you brought up a really interesting part about it being a commodity sale, right? Because you know, some people it is a commodity, you know. We, we have a friend who sells boxes. And so you know what, it comes down to price.
Well, we live in a first world country, most things are commodities. Tell me that you can't buy a car? Or you can't buy anything that doesn't have a competitor or 10 competitors or 20 competitors? Name one?
Silence.
I can't but, but there's the difference.
Diamonds.
You know, right. But, but there's the difference between, like, you know, selling boxes, you know, we, we all know a guy who sells boxes. Yeah. Right. And if you are, you know, Amazon, you're buying your boxes, it's going to come down to price, right? So what you are trying to uncover is like, what is your motivation? What's the biggest thing? How do we continue the conversation? Because honestly,
Because honestly, with boxes, like, you might just need a paper sack. Right?
Carry my lunch all my years in high, school.
But how do you, how do you know? How do you know what they need? Right?
But I agree and where I go with that is? So it's not always product, right? So when you say boxes, you're also talking about delivery, do they break, does shit fall out the bottom of it? Yeah. Is it what you want? So there's always a new, nuance of is what you're doing where you want to be?
And that's the difference between, in my opinion, being solutions driven, and just being like, features and benefits driven? Yeah. Right. Because, because if I can get you the better box that fits your needs, right? If you've been buying crappy boxes, and the bottom keeps falling out of them, and you're tired of that, you might be willing to pay for it because you're going to turn them over less. And then you still end up saving money. That's, that's driving awareness and finding a solution to it a problem
But how do you do that? But how do you do that?
Yes, questions?
What kind of questions?
I mean, I feel like you're looking for a very specific answer.
No, I don't think he is. There's a question behind every, every issue, right? Or there's an introduction to "Hey, probably going okay, but could I ask you a question? How are boxes working out for you today?"
Sure. And we're going to have a whole episode talking about questioning strategies and like, and like the best way to do this, but, but really, it's questions and not being attached to the outcome. Because here's the deal. If you see value in a certain thing that I can't deliver on, I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to make you see value. So good point,
Or better yet, if you say that everything's great, it doesn't necessarily mean everything's great.
So another thing that I, happens a lot in my industry that you can't get attached to is when somebody does deliver you a pain because you've asked the discovery questions. Let's just say, Hey, I, the box, the bottom of the box falls out constantly in these boxes. What's your solution to not having this? But listen, maybe you don't have a solution? Right? I don't know. That's okay. You don't have a solution? Get the fuck out. Right? Be honest.
There's not always a solution.
Your principal has got to be that you're going to deliver and be truthful and honest.
On this theme of features and benefits versus pain, right? Because that's what we're talking about. One thing you can't do is hear a customer's pain, not have the solution, and then provide features and benefits that you don't have. Yeah, a lot of people do this. Oh, absolutely. So then you're stuck in a, you are literally in a hole with a shovel. And that's your only way out.
Hold on real quick. Paul had that question. We kind of answered it. And then we just took off like running down a tangent. Paul, did we answer your question?
Yes. It was mostly for the people listening.
All right. Paul says yes. So so we're good. But I want to make sure that you got, you got a good answer out of that.
I can't even remember his question?
It wasn't important. That's why he's not up here.
But he is. But he is.
Team P. Hashtag Team P.
Look, look at what the talent just spit out. Oh, we may not be here next week, guys.
Technical difficulties, it's just a blank screen. So, back to features and benefits versus pain, right? Because I am a firm believer that if your principal is not, I want you to have the best experience possible, even if that means that it's not me. That that is going to lead you down the path of I just need to get my needs met by selling you something even if you don't really need it.
Where, where in this process, John, I'm asking you personally, because you have a process. I do. Where in this process do you start out asking these questions, this discovery for pain? Where do you do that? Do you do that up front? Do you do that once you've done bonding and rapport, or what do you do?
Yeah. So a couple episodes ago, we talked about setting expectations. And I talked about why I personally feel like it's such an important thing. And one of the biggest things is I'm going to ask you some hard questions. Right. I'm a consultant. Right. So So you say that to him? What that I'm going to that I'm going to ask you hard questions. I don't say it that blatantly.
Because I do.
I know you do. Yeah. Right. But I am going to talk about the types of questions I'm going to ask, Hey, I'm gonna have questions for you about like, what you tried in the past, did that work? What your timeline is, you know, we got to talk about budget, you know, if we can't have those kinds of conversations, we're never gonna be able to work together. So is that going to be okay?
What John just said is really important because you're setting expectations on some really hard questions that they're probably maybe have never heard. Yeah, in a sales conversation. Right.
Okay. But I want to caution people. John, showed it in a nutshell, and maybe most people got that. This is a process of getting to know your client discussing. So we're breaking to when you are at that point, to discuss the process of, "do you really have something I need to fix?"
Oh, yeah, one of my, one of my favorite things to say to people is if they're super clanned up, clammed up, excuse me, where they or if I get the feeling that their walls are up, is I'll, I'll say a line of like, "Hey, can we just make an agreement just real quick, that if we can't figure out what the ROI is of us working together, that we'll just call this thing over" Right? Because then that puts all the pressure on me as a salesperson and lets them feel at ease, right, which builds, builds the trust and builds the rapport. And then we can just focus on the conversation. Because then when I say, you know, what, what happens if you don't make a change? You now know that I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out the, because, because here's the deal, when you hire a consultant, right? No matter who it is, marketing consultant, coaching consultant, CRM consultant, they're going to find something to fix. Like, that's what they're there to do. Sure. But I'm trying to make you feel at ease around, hey, if we can't agree on this thing to where you know what you're getting and there's a positive ROI. Tell me to leave.
And the other side of you being in the CRM business? We touched on a couple episodes ago. Most people that you're dealing with may not even know that they have a pain that you can solve. Right? Absolutely. Because I would guess that in my business, most people are calling me to say, Hey, I have a job that I need you to fulfill. Give me your best price. That's a lot different than, they're not calling you, you're calling them. It's very different. Right? So you're calling them and, and if you puked, and I call it puke cuz it very much is, if you puked all the features and benefits of what you can do. It probably falls on deaf ears more times than not. However, if you ask questions to say, Hey, man, how are you tracking your data? Right? Your sales data? What are you doing every year, the..
And even that, even that, in my opinion, is a little too features and benefitsy, right? Data? I don't want data around my sales, I sell everyone I sit across from.
But listen, you're setting a avenue to go down, you're setting the information highway that you're trying to get on to go down.
But John just hit on it. So when we speak to physicians, have you ever had a negative outcome? Oh, never. Right? Well let them go there.
Because here's the deal, it is super uncomfortable to admit to a salesperson that you have a potential pain or gap in your business.
Okay. But, but at the same time, you're, you have to discover some pain, and you have to ask some questions.
So here, in our, in our business, the way it sort of runs is, so when this happens, right? Or when something breaks, or this doesn't work out? You know, what's your out?
Yeah. Okay. So in John's world, if you don't hit your sales goal for the year, how do you, how do you know what happened?
Absolutely.
So let me, so let me tell you, right, I started this business in September, and the first, I don't know, dozen or so clients, was just me reaching out to people that I knew from networking for the website business and saying, Hey, I'm working on a new thing. Can I tell you about it? I don't think you need this. But you might know someone who does. And, and really, I would just love your insight, because you've been in business longer than I have. Everyone is willing to take that meeting. So then, then I meet with him. And I say, Hey, you know, here are the things that I'm trying to do. Here are the concerns from the people that I've heard so far, right? We've got huge gaps between sales people, it takes a long time to ramp people up. There's no way to like forecast the future of the business based upon their sales pipeline and stuff like that. Inevitably, the first 12 people like already have those problems. Right? So just by talking about it as Hey, I'm looking for this, in a way of not trying to push my product on you, here's my pamphlet, take a look at it. You know, you want to talk about it? Just talking about like, these are the people that I'm looking for, they can then say, I have those problems. Oh, I wasn't sure.
Let me get some insight. If you're a smart business owner, if you're a smart CEO, VP of sales, a decision maker, if you're a decision maker that can buy something in a company, you talk to a lot of people, you want to make sure your decisions are right, that's the only way you stay either profitable, in business, you work with the right people. So from a sales standpoint, understand that. They aren't just one and done. They talk to friends, they have networks that probably far exceed your network. They're up the scale from you usually. Yeah. Right. And and so in a certain sense, when you bring that consulting attitude, not the sales attitude. But the 'does this make sense?' And then if it doesn't make sense to you, don't force it? Absolutely. Right. They'll see it coming, guys, they really will.
I think that was brilliant, what you said, John, you know, instead of features and benefit, you were like, identifying pains. And they kind of like put a light bulb in their head that, you know.
So I see this all the time when I'm like out networking, where, you know, I'm at the networking event, I'm talking to people, I'm like, what do you do, and they give me their 30 second pitch. Oh, we're the best around. We've been around since 1891? Well, if I see value in that aren't I going to see a little bit more value in someone who's been around since like, 1875. Right. So now like, I like I planted the seed...
So were you before electricity or after electricity?
But like, I'm just saying that, like when you're talking about features and benefits, it's like, oh, these guys do that thing. Maybe someone else does that thing as well.
You bring up a really interesting point. Because in my, on the desk behind me, in my office, I have stacks and stacks of vendors, business cards, right. And then I have a few out to the side that provide value. I know these guys, I trust these guys, these guys are the best. I only call these guys and only recommend these guys. This stack is features and benefits guys, and I met a networking event, a conference or wherever. And they said, I'm the best man, when you need this.
Where's John's card on your desk?
It's in the stack.
Which one?
The shit stack.
But you know, you know, the point of it is is that even, even in your own networking in your prospect- building that you got to be careful about spewing prospect, features and benefits versus pains, right. So you can even, even as networking events and doing prospect, you can say things like most people have this pain. And Doc's out, he quit.
He's taking a break.
No, he'll be back. So one of the things is with him is that I that I have to that I cannot spew features of benefits, because that's what they'll spew, right, to their referrals. So I have a stack of business cards. And where I'm going with this is that sometimes people will tell me all this stuff. And then when I'm, when I'm asked, Do you know anybody that does, let's just say concrete finish floors, really smooth floors? Well, I know one guy that's awesome at it. And I, and I have a stack of business cards of people that say they can do it. Right? That's very different than discovering pain, for sure. So even in your networking, even when you're out there pitching your yourself just to maybe even not even clients. Be careful about spewing features of benefits and saying you're the best and saying you're the best company and we do this and we do that discover, explain some pains that you've solved.
Well, that and then it's a lot of, it's a lot of pressure to carry. Right, we're we're the cheapest Oh, man. Now Now, you know, you forever have got to be the cheapest or we're the best or we're the fastest for delivery or, or whatever that thing is.
What happens when you don't deliver on?
Absolutely right, then you're done.
That's, that's one of the biggest downfalls of features and benefits in my book is what happens when you don't deliver on that.
Well, that's what I thought about...
Now you're dead.
...when, when you were talking about the concrete guy, you have the one guy. What if he fails, then you're then they're not going to return you, would they?
I would much rather a guy say to me, Look, you have a you have a problem. Look, I have a solution to your problem. It's going to be tough. It's going to be hard. It's going to cost some money. What What is that money that you're willing to spend with me? They look, I think that fits in both but just know, right? Just know that this may not all go perfectly? And if it doesn't, we'll figure it out.
Yeah. Can we just agree to talk about it?
That's a partnership. Yeah, right. Absolutely. versus somebody said, Hey, we do it every day. We got this, I got it. Don't worry about it, it cost a million bucks. We got it. And you're just like, Okay, well, they got it. And what happens when that, what happens when it doesn't?
Well you shift from conversation to solution? You know, and that's way more important.
So, so not only just being a salesperson and pitching features and benefits, versus asking for pain, but also be careful about the outcome of features and benefits for versus pain. Because if you truly did pains correctly, and you truly got the information that you needed, and you solve their solution, but you set expectations to say, man, look, in my business, it doesn't always go smooth. We're going to have some ups and downs, and I'm going to work through you with a partner. And when that situation arises, like John said, 'Can we just have a conversation about how to move forward' versus saying, 'I've got this, I'm going to do it for you. I'm the best in the business.' Because when it doesn't happen that way, you're screwed.
Well, I mean, so, so then what happens, right, is we're using cloudy language back to prospects because they like cloudy language.
But they love it, they love it.
Oh, yeah, right. And they don't they don't even understand how non committal they're being right. So they, they say things like, I want more business. I want more leads, I want, I need a bigger building. What does a bigger mean?
But guys, not only do they love it, they've been trained to get it?
Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Because everyone else, and you said something earlier that I think is real important. Talking about, you know, bringing value, right, which looked at in the wrong way is a lot of free work. Yeah, right. Sure. You show up and you do the free audit. And that because because this is going to highlight all the potential gaps in their business and things like that. So that, you know, you got to be careful about where does the value added line end and the free work line begin?
Yeah. Well, Doc's back, everybody, just in case you...
Did you miss me?
...if you were worried.
Old man bladder.
Too many drinks?
Forgive me.
Exactly.
But you do have to be careful with that features and benefits versus value added line. Right? For sure. But also, at the same time when people ask you, what do you do? And how do you do it? Sometimes there's an answer there that's not features. It may come off features and benefits. But you do have to answer the question to move forward. Right? So don't always think you have to answer every question with a question. Don't, don't be coy about it. Don't, don't be stupid about it. If somebody asks you what you do, don't say, Well, I don't know, what do you need me to do. Yeah, yeah, that's a silly way to do it.
How much does it cost? Well, what do you want?
What do you want? Yeah. So be careful about that. Right, there is a line that you have to cross because you do have to provide some information that, they're entitled to some information, right? Why are you even there? If you're not going to provide information about you? That's not features and benefits? That's answering a question and then discovering after, but you have to discover afterwards. Absolutely.
Or before, because you can say so important question.
Why'd you call me to the table.
Yeah. Why did you ask? Why do you ask?
It sounds like that's really important to you. I'd love to, I'd love to find out why.
Get clarification.
Yeah, yeah. And great, especially, especially, and this me the C talking, right? If you know the questions that naturally normally come up in a sales conversation, and then you get a, you get a question that's out of left field? Where the hell does that thing come from you? Like, like, I, I'm curious enough that I really want to know that.
How did we even get here and I didn't know that.
Absolutely. So, and Nan heard me say this, when you look at somebody and go, Whoa, you just kick me in the nuts? Why do you ask that? I mean, when you can honestly just say that, then you've got a good rapport going, go ahead and just let it fly. Hey, out of, when you say left field, you're like, Whoa, man. Bitch slap me. Tell me more about that please.
I will say this over and over again. For me, as a high D, if you're out there listening and you resonate with me, you have to build all of this in bonding and rapport, You have to set expectations that you're going to be that way, right. So one thing you can't do is be friendly, friendly, friendly. Hey, I'm your guy. I'm the best blah, blah, blah, and then all the sudden get in a conference room and say, oh, by the way, and now I have to ask you all these tough questions. That's really tough on the ears. So okay. So if you, if you do you're bonding and rapport, right? And you build a trust relationship and a valued relationship, these questions are easy.
Well, so we're just real quick. And then Nan, Nan said something, but it was under you, but I want to make sure we talk about it. Like you buy from who you trust, right? If a guy shows up, and he's got a Lamborghini, and he's like, man, hundred bucks, you can have this thing. I don't trust that situation. Like, like, What is going on? So the bonding and rapport leads to trust. And then setting expectations continues that trust so that way, when I'm going to ask you really hard questions you might not even have any have answers to and you definitely don't want to share with a salesperson, we can at least have a conversation about it.
Yeah, one of the things I want to I want to talk about here is as we go through these episodes, we're talking about a topic, but don't take us out of context, right? You really got to have some some backup. You gotta, you gotta build some other things that we've maybe talked about in previous episodes. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, to get to this point.
Yeah, this isn't one and done. And, and when you brought up the point of when you have to ask question, sometimes you need to ask, there's a process where we referenced this in another episode, where you sat with a really energetic individual, and then the owner's son, and then you. So sometimes you have the inside of being able to say, is it going to be okay for me to ask this question, I really need to know this to make, and that's just showing your genuine nature to say, this is a hard...
But it's also setting great expectations.
Oh, absolutely. There's nothing better than showing vulnerability to get information, app app to their cat.
Oh, abs, abs, god. Yeah, that's, that's a, like I could spend a whole episode on just like you can transactional analysis. And I'm okay, you're okay.
There's no other reason to show vulnerability other than to further the cause of understanding and getting a relationship built. Right.
I would guess that I'm probably more direct than most people up here on this fact that I set mutual contracts before I asked a question. Look, man, I'm about to ask you some tough shit. Look, we're friends, right? We're buddies, you trust me? I trust you. These conversations suck because, because they're not comfortable, right? We're going to talk about money. We're going to talk about these things that they're failures, right, because how do you discover pain if there's no failure? Usually pain is is very linked to failure. Absolutely. So nobody, most people will say nobody, most people don't like to talk about their failures. And when you start asking about pain, you're talking about their failures, especially in my world. And that's really tough right now. So without all that bonding, rapport, and trust, and, and setting mutual contracts, before you go into that meeting that says, Hey, man, for us to move forward, if you really, truly value me, and I truly value you, we have to get through some of this preliminary stuff, which is me asking you questions about stuff that's happened in the past, right? If they agree to what you just asked, and they said, Yeah, amen. I know, it's uncomfortable. Let's talk about it. Because I need to get through that.
You can now do anything you need.
Ducks win designs. But you know, my point is, is that if you set those expectations up front, and those contracts between the two of you those questions that you're probably deep down, nervous to ask, or just afraid, they come a lot easier.
Now, that still feels a little forced, and I understand you push it for in a little more than I do, because I want them to come to me with this guy, really a genuine guy. And he's asking me some questions that I feel like I'm safe answering, right. I don't feel threatened by this. I think this is a decent conversation. So I'm looking at their agenda of, you know, whereas maybe they're afraid not yours, because certain one I'm like, oh shit.
But, but at the same time, that's my work around my own personality. So if you're a high D, we're direct people, right? And the way that I get around being offensively up front and direct is by saying, Look, man, I just have a process. I'm very, I say this stuff, just so you guys know, I'm not speaking from the hip here. I actually say this to my customers, agree with it or not? Hey, look, man, I'm a very direct guy, I ask a lot of questions, people get offended, sometimes. I apologize for that. That's me. I am going to ask you some questions to qualify you in my process. And one of those things is I have to talk about budget, I have to talk about some of your failures, that's going to be uncomfortable shit. I don't want to do that. But unfortunately, to get through my process, and, and to help me help you, and to provide value to the customer, I think that we have to go through that process. And if you're okay with that, I'd like to move forward. If they say no, fuck it, get the fuck out, move on, go find another customer that will because that's value. And that's partnership.
So, Nan's been very quiet on this episode.
I just don't think in the medical field, there's, there's pain, but it's not at the level that y'all experience. So it's a little different.
The thing that I think is interesting, right, is you have to get a doctor who, you know, you're the smartest kid in high school, right? You don't party in college, you don't have much of a social life, because you want to get into med school, you get into med school, which is a brutal ass beating, and then you're a resident, which is like no life. And then finally, you're a doctor, and you make more money than the average person does. And you got a lot of power. Why? Why would you be a normal functioning human? Right, sorry. Just going to be honest. So you...
Some of them are, but yeah, agreed.
Yeah, I mean, some of them are nice and social and everything else like this. But you know, most of them yeah, you, Nan, you have to get these people who were like, they view themselves as a top of the food chain. Right? I give you back your life, right, on the table sometimes. Right? So how do you talk about pain? How do you get people to admit that things could be better?
Okay, because they pull their pants up just the same way as everybody else does? And they have businesses, they have revenue streams, everything that a business has.
I levitate to the bonding rapport. I know I say it all the time. But that is, the, I will not, I will never back down from as much as y'all fight me on it. That's the most important thing hundred percent to me. Yesterday, I had a meeting with this group. And they were like, Oh, yeah, we don't really, that's not something we're really interested in. And so I continued, I was not doing features and benefits. I was asking them, okay, so in your practice, how do you do this? How do you do that? And then the doctor, one of the doctors said, Oh, well, we aren't we just bought one of those machines. And I said, Oh, alright, cool. So the whole time I'm interacting with everyone in the room, and asking questions, by the end of it. They were, they, the doctor was like, you know, I know, we just bought that. But that makes sense. So it was in conversation. My point being, you have to have conversation, you have to talk and, and build in that building in the bonding and rapport, you are still talking about what they need.
You've described lubrication. You've lubed them up. You've made it easier to slide in.
But I'm telling you, you are like so into that. But anyway...
I'm being serious. So..
I know.
Because what you said...
It's true, it's so true.
But I agree with that so naturally to your personality, that comes, because you actually care, right, you actually care about warming them up, and you actually care about solving their solutions. From a person standpoint, a soul standpoint, I don't have that.
I'm more solving their issues, not their solutions.
But the point of it is, is we may look at it differently. But we both agree, we both said it in this episode, that bonding rapport is very crucial. And setting up the next step in our process, which is discovering pain and how we can solve that and add value. But you can't just jump into that. You can, you can, you can. You can it might work, it's a probably a 1% chance that you're going to move forward. However, you can flip that script, and you can warm them up and set expectations and, and mutual contracts. Right. And you can do all those things. I agree with you. There's a, as an S to a D. We don't do that very often. But I agree with you by setting that and actually.
And because I think that sets your, you up for failure when you've got to win.
It's a good point.
But 100%, you did you did not say that first you discovered pain and then relinquish that information. That is the biggest kicker here. Right. So most people, especially probably S's and I's, and really so much D's are already, I'll get into this on our on our throwdown segment here in a second.
Al had a point a moment ago. Can we touch on that and then we'll give them throwdown?
Yeah, I mean, we we vacillated between bonding and rapport and how to get to pain. You tell your friends and people that you trust the things that are the most intimate to you. Right? I mean, you don't tell a stranger or somebody you don't know which, hey, this isn't going well. Well, but what I'm saying is, from a sales standpoint, understand the psychology of human nature. Why did people tell people the most important things that they're having conflict over? Because they trust them? And they like them? So from a sales standpoint, when you come in with bonding rapport, it is to establish that you can, Mr. client, Mr. prospect, tell me some of these things. And we can work on them together. Yeah. Right. So take that to heart in in your process. And
I have a question for you, Al, being someone who's very, very people driven, right? Do you struggle? If If you don't build enough of that trust, and then and then someone is kind of like shutting down on you, is that is that hard for you to deal with as an I?
Well, I know I didn't do enough bonding and rapport to get to...
Do you to back up and correct that?
Sometimes, not all the time. Sometimes it, I just know it's going horrifically bad or the you know, I'm about to run over a cliff because we have a time constraint, right.Backing up, sometimes you don't have the time, you know, it just, you didn't do your jobs, right the first time.
So for me, I recognize that I did that, I do that a lot. Right? I did, I didn't warm them up enough, I didn't do enough bonding or rapport to get to the point where I'm at. And now I'm failing. And I see that right in front of my eyes. There was a couple different ways you can do that. You can back up and try to work through that. And that's one way. Me personally, as a high D, I just, I cut bait and run, and I don't do it again.
Is that because you don't like looking?
Well I don't want to talk about failure, so I don't fail. I mean, but that's insight, right. So I feel that I only win. So cutting bait and running allows you to still is a technical retreat, it's not a failure. Interesting. There you go.
Speaking to the D's around, you know, pain versus features and benefits,
Alright, so as a high D, if you're out there listening, in my world, your ego is going to get in the way of this really hard. Because your ego driven and gut driven, and you want to be the best in the room. Your natural inclination is to spew, spew and puke features and benefits. Because you think you're the best, right? And on paper, you may be right, you hand out that brochure, you say hey, look, I got the best brochure, I'm the slickest guy in town, I can solve all your problems, just call me. That's your ego, check that shit. Check it at the door, find out what you really truly have in your tank, what you can truly provide that customer. Find all those things that you match up on, I have this in my arsenal, they need my arsenal, go after that shit. And only after that shit.
Awesome. Al, as our I.
As an I, you're generally well liked. Use that to your advantage as you begin your conversation, work the angle or work your, you know, your personality into a trusted position. And you can do that very quickly. I mean, if you're really good I, they're gonna feel your empathy. They're gonna understand that as they begin to unfold what their sales process is or what their buying process is, that it revolves around, I need to find a solution. That trust will go a long way, ask the right questions. Once you're there, don't blow it, get to the crux. Go for the win and, and understand their issues and then fulfill their needs.
Interesting. Nan, as an S.
So have you ever know gone to buy a car? How do you want to be treated? How do you, what, what I just met the easiest thing, I'm just gonna, just for time. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Sell to people the way you want to be sold to. It's ridiculous. Like don't treat people don't try to scam them. Don't try to, just help them. Just like you want to be, just like you want to be treated. I just, I know it's so S. But I really think that was so important.
Or sorry, we're not, we're not debating at this point. Sorry. So, so as a C, understand that the things that you see value in, they might not and that's totally okay. It's incredibly short sighted to think that someone is dumb or an idiot because they don't see value in the things you see value in. And, as a takeaway, go talk to the people that you kill it for. Be like, hey, why did you pick me? You know, what did we do that made you want to move with us versus someone else? Why do you stay? Go take that information and turn it into a process and so that we you can ask questions around those kinds of things, right? If they say, well, you're the best what makes us the best?
You're a good kisser.
Dig into that. And then on the other thing is that, don't take the, don't take the stuff that you're being told too literally. I's very easy as a C to take things, you know, I'm known as Captain Literal in many, many circles. So don't take that, because everybody wants more business. Everybody on the planet. Nike wants more business, right? But what happens if you don't get it? Right? That's, that's pain. And if you can get to that part of pain, you know, they're not going to lowball you. Right? You're, they, they're on this journey with you as this person that they trust. So that's what these episodes...
Captain Literal.
Captain Literal, it's a thing for sure.
He is a good kisser though.
If you're listening to this, guys, and you want to follow us on social media, everything is at Sales Throwdown. Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, if you have questions from the field, send them to us. We'd love to kind of unpack them and talk about how each one of us deals with it. If you're watching us on YouTube, I hope you're enjoying the show. Sorry, you had to witness Al who kind of get up and walk out of the room.
Sorry man, old man bladder. I want to say thank you to everybody that's listened to us this, this far through the whole, you know, episodes that we put out there. We do appreciate you guys. You guys are the reason we're here. We, you know we have a little ego wrapped into this, but it is really genuine when we say thank you for listening. Come back and see us next time.
Leave, leave a, leave an honest review. Right if you think it's good, awesome. If you think we can improve, let us know. If you know someone who's struggling share this with them.
Hashtag your team, Team D.
Thanks ya'll.
Thanks. Have a good night.